Welfare/pension ruins the league

[Baozi 1,658]

Howabout instead of penalizing pensioners and driving them away, howabout you just find a way to bring in more active players.

 

Sorry JR, none of your suggestions would enable me to stay here and you still haven't really shown me the strength of a straight of all pension player. The reason why there are 20 people on pension is because thats 20 bodies that are either bored or too busy to make PTs but still hang around. The point isn't to drive them away, its just for whatever reason they don't or can't make PTs. Its just an bracket really of players (kinda like baby boomers in real life). The bigger issue is recruitment, 20 pension players wouldn't be a big deal if you had big recruitment anyways to offset. You won't convert any of the pensioners to active players because they simply can't or don't want to right now. So thats 20 bodies that at least still login.

 

Don't look at it as doing pension vs PT, its basically doing pension or leaving the website.

Edited March 28, 2016 by tfong

[Evans 305]

11 minutes ago, tfong said:

Howabout instead of penalizing pensioners and driving them away, howabout you just find a way to bring in more active players.

 

Sorry JR, none of your suggestions would enable me to stay here and you still haven't really shown me the strength of a straight of all pension player. The reason why there are 20 people on pension is because thats 20 bodies that are either bored or too busy to make PTs but still hang around. The point isn't to drive them away, its just for whatever reason they don't or can't make PTs. Its just an bracket really of players (kinda like baby boomers in real life). The bigger issue is recruitment, 20 pension players wouldn't be a big deal if you had big recruitment anyways to offset. You won't convert any of the pensioners to active players because they simply can't or don't want to right now. So thats 20 bodies that at least still login.

 

Don't look at it as doing pension vs PT, its basically doing pension or leaving the website.

 

Thats ridiculous to break it down like that. The only thing that would keep people checking this website is free points? People check the site because they like the people here and have some sort of attachment to the league. 

 

I understand rewarding guys that have been here a while is a good idea but when you have that many people doing it, I doubt all cases are due to being busy. If people think pension is what saved the league then the league was never actually saved. You just prolonged it dying by giving people free points despite them not adding anything to the league currently. 

[Bojo 221]

10 minutes ago, Evans said:

 

Thats ridiculous to break it down like that. The only thing that would keep people checking this website is free points? People check the site because they like the people here and have some sort of attachment to the league. 

 

I understand rewarding guys that have been here a while is a good idea but when you have that many people doing it, I doubt all cases are due to being busy. If people think pension is what saved the league then the league was never actually saved. You just prolonged it dying by giving people free points despite them not adding anything to the league currently. 

 

One could argue that the PT's don't actually create activity. Perhaps even drive them away knowing that they won't ever have a chance if they don't put in this extra effort.

 

I know I'm relatively new here, but I'd say the thing that has kept me active is seeing the game results, being on the same team as some cool people (obligatory f u, jala), and posting in the game threads. Activity comes from being around other good people. Retaining it comes from finding a good comfy range of minimum effort and maximum potential.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Bojo

[Evans 305]

7 minutes ago, Bojo said:

 

One could argue that the PT's don't actually create activity. Perhaps even drive them away knowing that they won't ever have a chance if they don't put in this extra effort.

 

I know I'm relatively new here, but I'd say the thing that has kept me active is seeing the game results, being on the same team as some cool people (obligatory f u, jala), and posting in the game threads. Activity comes from being around other good people. Retaining it comes from finding a good comfy range of minimum effort and maximum potential.

 

I'm new here too lol. PTs have a much greater chance at promoting activity than allowing people points based on past TPE levels though. PTs lead to discussion which leads to activity. PTs (along with sims actually happening) are the first thing most potential members with any experience in sims league look at to make sure a league isn't dying before deciding to join.  If we aren't bringing in enough new members on a yearly basis we could hit a point where the majority of the league claims pension and activity in other areas drops off greatly. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Evans

[Baozi 1,658]

I'd hang around here in chat and everything, occasionally participate in conversations. But as far as PTs go? I'm done. I usually do a bunch for the draft year of my player because you need the boost in order to be a decent player coming into the 2nd year but after that I've collected pension and used donations to keep my player at a semi decent level. Are we prolonging the dying? Yes we are, but pensioners aren't the cause of it. Its the recruitment issue. Pensioners are merely just another 20 bodies hanging out, why penalize them? Its recruitment that should be focused on because very few of those 20 pensions can be brought back to do full time PTs I can pretty much say.

 

Nobody could care about 20 pension players if more people were constantly recruited in. So its better to focus on the root issues than the one that is more or less superficial.

Edited March 28, 2016 by tfong

[Evans 305]

2 minutes ago, tfong said:

I'd hang around here in chat and everything, occasionally participate in conversations. But as far as PTs go? I'm done. I usually do a bunch for the draft year of my player because you need the boost in order to be a decent player coming into the 2nd year but after that I've collected pension and used donations to keep my player at a semi decent level. Are we prolonging the dying? Yes we are, but pensioners aren't the cause of it. Its the recruitment issue. Pensioners are merely just another 20 bodies hanging out, why penalize them? Its recruitment that should be focused on because very few of those 20 pensions can be brought back to do full time PTs I can pretty much say.

 

Nobody could care about 20 pension players if more people were constantly recruited in. So its better to focus on the root issues than the one that is more or less superficial.

 

While I agree that pension isn't as big of an issue as recruiting, I don't think pension doesn't have its effects on the league. Could be very hard for a person new to the league to keep interest when someone doing nothing gets almost the exact amount of points they are. A lot of people wouldn't be willing to fight that uphill battle as a first generation guy. That could make it hard to retain talent. 

 

I'm all for having a pension plan but I feel there needs to be something done to make it a lower percentage of the max points people are allowed to earn each week. Whether that be lowering how much pension is or increasing TPE weekly cap, I feel like it should at least be discussed. 

[diamond_ace 3,112]

On 3/27/2016 at 0:18 PM, Mr. Power said:

As Street and Green have shown, the purpose of welfare isn't to just "reward" members for doing nothing. It's to KEEP members who would otherwise not recreate around. The VHL often has a very deep cycle of "legit" members that can often at times build and make up it's core. More often than not after 2-3 solid to great careers, careers mind you where they did write MS, do Podcasts, have league jobs, and really participate in making this place great, members feel burnt out. Maybe they have wife, kids, new job, family, tests, exams, the list goes on. 

 

It's a reality of this being a sim league. Sure it's fun, sure it can be important. But it is never more important than life. Not only would removing the bigger welfare bonus make us lose these members now, we could damage ourselves in the future too. For now, members like Green and Street can be burnt out, or busy. We've had tons of members in that same boat. But often, after any number of seasons, if those same people get the itch again, and they end up having more free time for a period of a few months? Suddenly they recreate, and are active again for one more player. Welfare keeps them around for when that day comes. 

I'll throw my name out there as a member who is essentially still here only because of welfare. I'd occasionally get an inkling to come back, but if I hadn't at least somewhat been here I doubt I'd do it

[Victor 10,937]

Although there are some excellent points being made here and like Phil I will push for these to be discussed in the BOG.

 

But this is absolutely horrific Thunderdome material. For shame!

[Devise 4,475]

1 hour ago, Evans said:

 

Thats ridiculous to break it down like that. The only thing that would keep people checking this website is free points? People check the site because they like the people here and have some sort of attachment to the league. 

 

I understand rewarding guys that have been here a while is a good idea but when you have that many people doing it, I doubt all cases are due to being busy. If people think pension is what saved the league then the league was never actually saved. You just prolonged it dying by giving people free points despite them not adding anything to the league currently. 

 

I'm sorry but how can you not see this is just a ignorant insult to the pensioners? "Them not adding anything to the league." 

 

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the idea that you need to be doing PT's to be adding something to this league. Secondly, several people who have been known at one point or another as "pensioners" have had league jobs, contributed in things like the BoG, with ideas to make the site better, the list goes on. That is on top of them commenting in any off topic threads, being an audience to comment on Media Spots for the older members, offering insight which a lot of these older members have a good amount of since you know we've been here for seasons. While I probably don't qualify as a "Pensioner" I have taken Welfare for a large portion of Humberts career, mixed with a few other things. So I also take offense to this statement.

 

We present a relatively open and friendly community filled with a mix of pensioners/former actives, some hybrids like myself, and the newer upper tier core members. The issue is that "core member" group of people who are super active is lower than it was at different era's when most of the pensioner/welfare guys used to be apart of that group. As has been stated in this thread, recruitment is the issue. But when we have seen large amounts of new/returning faces in a given period we do have a pretty good retention/sticking rate. So the issue is getting the word out, and getting people here, not as much the systems we offer. 

[Smarch 3,150]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

I'm sorry but how can you not see this is just a ignorant insult to the pensioners? "Them not adding anything to the league." 

 

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the idea that you need to be doing PT's to be adding something to this league. Secondly, several people who have been known at one point or another as "pensioners" have had league jobs, contributed in things like the BoG, with ideas to make the site better, the list goes on. That is on top of them commenting in any off topic threads, being an audience to comment on Media Spots for the older members, offering insight which a lot of these older members have a good amount of since you know we've been here for seasons. While I probably don't qualify as a "Pensioner" I have taken Welfare for a large portion of Humberts career, mixed with a few other things. So I also take offense to this statement.

 

We present a relatively open and friendly community filled with a mix of pensioners/former actives, some hybrids like myself, and the newer upper tier core members. The issue is that "core member" group of people who are super active is lower than it was at different era's when most of the pensioner/welfare guys used to be apart of that group. As has been stated in this thread, recruitment is the issue. But when we have seen large amounts of new/returning faces in a given period we do have a pretty good retention/sticking rate. So the issue is getting the word out, and getting people here, not as much the systems we offer. 

Also to this point, I may not be a great VHLM commish, but I get my job done. I wouldn't have come back and taken the job if pension wasn't available to me.

[Baozi 1,658]

55 minutes ago, Evans said:

 

While I agree that pension isn't as big of an issue as recruiting, I don't think pension doesn't have its effects on the league. Could be very hard for a person new to the league to keep interest when someone doing nothing gets almost the exact amount of points they are. A lot of people wouldn't be willing to fight that uphill battle as a first generation guy. That could make it hard to retain talent. 

 

I'm all for having a pension plan but I feel there needs to be something done to make it a lower percentage of the max points people are allowed to earn each week. Whether that be lowering how much pension is or increasing TPE weekly cap, I feel like it should at least be discussed. 

 

I dunno, because welfare without 400+ tpe players doesn't mean much. So at the very least it motivates someone to make 2 players to a decent level before being able to collect the 4+ welfare anyways. You're forgetting that most of the people like us that collect 4+1 from the store have already made several players and each player spans a year or so. So at the very least people have to be committed to spending time here if they hope to get the same benefit. Also in order to get 4+1 you need a contract of 3 million so at the very least you need to get to a reasonable TPE level anyways before that occurs.

 

Otherwise you get +1 or +2 which really does nothing anyways. There's actually quite a few conditions in order to reach the 4+ TPE welfare to begin with.

Edited March 28, 2016 by tfong

[Evans 305]

1 hour ago, Mr. Power said:

 

I'm sorry but how can you not see this is just a ignorant insult to the pensioners? "Them not adding anything to the league." 

 

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the idea that you need to be doing PT's to be adding something to this league. Secondly, several people who have been known at one point or another as "pensioners" have had league jobs, contributed in things like the BoG, with ideas to make the site better, the list goes on. That is on top of them commenting in any off topic threads, being an audience to comment on Media Spots for the older members, offering insight which a lot of these older members have a good amount of since you know we've been here for seasons. While I probably don't qualify as a "Pensioner" I have taken Welfare for a large portion of Humberts career, mixed with a few other things. So I also take offense to this statement.

 

We present a relatively open and friendly community filled with a mix of pensioners/former actives, some hybrids like myself, and the newer upper tier core members. The issue is that "core member" group of people who are super active is lower than it was at different era's when most of the pensioner/welfare guys used to be apart of that group. As has been stated in this thread, recruitment is the issue. But when we have seen large amounts of new/returning faces in a given period we do have a pretty good retention/sticking rate. So the issue is getting the word out, and getting people here, not as much the systems we offer. 

 

So people that collect pension have time to do ALL of that, but not post a 450 word MS or a graphic weekly? Doesn't add up. Pension isn't being used primarily for people who don't have time to do a point task if that's the case. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Evans

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

2 hours ago, Evans said:

 

Thats ridiculous to break it down like that. The only thing that would keep people checking this website is free points? People check the site because they like the people here and have some sort of attachment to the league. 

 

I understand rewarding guys that have been here a while is a good idea but when you have that many people doing it, I doubt all cases are due to being busy. If people think pension is what saved the league then the league was never actually saved. You just prolonged it dying by giving people free points despite them not adding anything to the league currently. 

 

Well the ability to make a decent player of Welfare only is what kept me around. As you know I will retire Martell in the SBA after his 8th season, Willems will be gone from the SHL after that current season is done and I originally had no intention of staying in any league besides checking in and post occassionaly (without an active player).

 

The reason I stayed was indeed because I like the league and people here, and I won't be a superstar with Maximoff, I settle for depth with welfare and that's a personal choice. For me it was indeed this or no player at all. And this is something new for me as well, as I always went in full force for my players (just look at the accolades Miles had in the SBA and LeBeau and O'Malley in the VHL)

[Devise 4,475]

5 minutes ago, Evans said:

 

So people that collect pension have time to do ALL of that, but not post a 450 word MS or a graphic weekly? Doesn't add up. Pension isn't being used primarily for people who don't have time to do a point task if that's the case. 

 

The inability to due a point task isn't always just a time constraint. For some, it feels more like "work." There is also a huge factor people often ignore. Lots of people on this forum browse and post from their phones or tablets during the free time they have. So someone who contributes to the league and community by being up with their team results, making the odd post in the LR and participating in what part of the forums they are most interested in. They don't have the time to take, depending on the creative, typing, and writing skills, can be anywhere from 10-60+ minutes to sit down at a PC with a keyboard and write a MS. But that doesn't mean they aren't other, easier, and simpler ways of contributing to a forum. Ways which these members do. 

[Evans 305]

3 minutes ago, Green said:

 

Well the ability to make a decent player of Welfare only is what kept me around. As you know I will retire Martell in the SBA after his 8th season, Willems will be gone from the SHL after that current season is done and I originally had no intention of staying in any league besides checking in and post occassionaly (without an active player).

 

The reason I stayed was indeed because I like the league and people here, and I won't be a superstar with Maximoff, I settle for depth with welfare and that's a personal choice. For me it was indeed this or no player at all. And this is something new for me as well, as I always went in full force for my players (just look at the accolades Miles had in the SBA and LeBeau and O'Malley in the VHL)

 

I completely understand and I'm glad it's kept you around on all those platforms. I'm just trying to bring up that maybe one of the reasons this league has issues bringing in new blood is that is caters so much to the veteran/OG guys. At some point you need to shift the arrow a little more in the favor of the new guys. This place will retain a high number of older guys regardless because of the history of this league. Its doesn't seem like this place has much of an issue of people signing up, it's people coming back after initial creation.  

[Evans 305]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

The inability to due a point task isn't always just a time constraint. For some, it feels more like "work." There is also a huge factor people often ignore. Lots of people on this forum browse and post from their phones or tablets during the free time they have. So someone who contributes to the league and community by being up with their team results, making the odd post in the LR and participating in what part of the forums they are most interested in. They don't have the time to take, depending on the creative, typing, and writing skills, can be anywhere from 10-60+ minutes to sit down at a PC with a keyboard and write a MS. But that doesn't mean they aren't other, easier, and simpler ways of contributing to a forum. Ways which these members do. 

 

Veteran guys aren't the only ones who feel this way though lol. Everyone has weeks like that. But use someone like me for example, I have to go the two TPE route while other guys go 5 for the same amount of effort during that week. For new guys (not me, I'm a PT machine) that could be a deal breaker. 

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Evans said:

 

I completely understand and I'm glad it's kept you around on all those platforms. I'm just trying to bring up that maybe one of the reasons this league has issues bringing in new blood is that is caters so much to the veteran/OG guys. At some point you need to shift the arrow a little more in the favor of the new guys. This place will retain a high number of older guys regardless because of the history of this league. Its doesn't seem like this place has much of an issue of people signing up, it's people coming back after initial creation.  

 

That isn't true either. We haven't had the influx of new recruits since moving to this new site that we used to have in the S30's early S40's era. It has been a long topic in the BoG, the numbers of new accounts signing up are way down than what it used to be. Retention is actually doing better than usual, and believe it or not a big factor in that is Welfare. 

 

Just because I want to do another long ass post, let me lay out what the VHL and sim leagues in general are. Especially for people who think that making the scales harder, the time commitment more severe. The VHL is a forum based game. No different than any other video game really. We live in a world where peoples free time is worth more than their money in most cases. So your telling me, you think the answer to getting MORE members in this world, a world where more people use their phones, tablets, etc to play games on and waste their free time is to push a hardcore time commitment, have very little options for the "easy stick around" such as welfare, and really separate ourselves as a factor in pushing solely to build very active members through lots of league investment. That simply isn't going to happen. Even in more ideal circumstances. The VHL and leagues like it are niche. We appeal not only to just a specific fan of a specific sport in most cases, we also appeal to people who are trying to get a different experience than those provided in Madden, or NHL video game series. Because you can build and play as your own player in that. 

 

I'm not saying that means we should just tuck our legs and do nothing. But getting rid of welfare isn't the issue. Welfare keeps more members around, it has good chances of allowing us to retain members who maybe join up curious what the site is, but who have similar time constraints. The issue right now is, and has been recruitment. Plain as day. 

[Devise 4,475]

4 minutes ago, Evans said:

 

Veteran guys aren't the only ones who feel this way though lol. Everyone has weeks like that. But use someone like me for example, I have to go the two TPE route while other guys go 5 for the same amount of effort during that week. For new guys (not me, I'm a PT machine) that could be a deal breaker. 

 

Why would that be a deal breaker? In today's league, a new member who signs up who is super active, 9 TPE per week has a greater chance of producing a HoF to legendary caliber player than ever before. See the top TPE earners of this past few era's. That is because there is so much middle ground, that the elite severely stand out. Which is the point of the system. New faces should be encouraged to do as much as possible because they know they have the best chance at making the best players.

[CowboyinAmerica 2,889]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

Just because I want to do another long ass post, let me lay out what the VHL and sim leagues in general are. Especially for people who think that making the scales harder, the time commitment more severe. The VHL is a forum based game. No different than any other video game really. We live in a world where peoples free time is worth more than their money in most cases. So your telling me, you think the answer to getting MORE members in this world, a world where more people use their phones, tablets, etc to play games on and waste their free time is to push a hardcore time commitment, have very little options for the "easy stick around" such as welfare, and really separate ourselves as a factor in pushing solely to build very active members through lots of league investment. That simply isn't going to happen. Even in more ideal circumstances. The VHL and leagues like it are niche. We appeal not only to just a specific fan of a specific sport in most cases, we also appeal to people who are trying to get a different experience than those provided in Madden, or NHL video game series. Because you can build and play as your own player in that. 

 

Just a note because I get what you're saying but does come off a bit condescending - Evans has been in football leagues for as long as I have. He's well aware what sim leagues are.

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

Just a note because I get what you're saying but does come off a bit condescending - Evans has been in football leagues for as long as I have. He's well aware what sim leagues are.

 

Fair enough. Not trying to be condescending, just pointing it out to use as a reference for me really not understanding how any can look at welfare and see it as the problem. 

[Evans 305]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Fair enough. Not trying to be condescending, just pointing it out to use as a reference for me really not understanding how any can look at welfare and see it as the problem. 

 

I'm not saying welfare itself is the issue. I'm saying that it being worth one TPE less than a point task for certain guys is crazy. 

 

And I feel I can speak on the whole newbie thing because I left here before because of how much went towards the vets. I created, updated for a couple of weeks and was passed up by several recreates. And when I mean passed up, I mean damn near lapped. I went from a possible top half of the first draftee to being pushed late into the second (TPE wise). 

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

Jacques Grande could have been great

 

But activity will always win it over welfare. Welfare guys usually wont get the league jobs either (mostly because they dont want to put the time in) and therefor it will be hard for them to reach the 9 tpe gap.

 

Activity is rewarded with jobs, as a relative new member I was active and got the welfare job and held it until I decided to take a step back from the league. I was a nobody in the sim world, but activity landed me that job and it got me to that 9 tpe cap over time, making sure I would surpass the veterans at that time.

 

Welfare is good to retain people, and I really do not see it as a bad thing that would demotivate a new player. Every tpe I got over a welfare claimer was one tpe that I got extra compared to them. For me it was just a motivation to do as much as I could and surpass them as soon as I could.

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

well leagues dead guys its been a good run. 47 seasons and time to pack up shop. 

[Baozi 1,658]

1 hour ago, Evans said:

 

I'm not saying welfare itself is the issue. I'm saying that it being worth one TPE less than a point task for certain guys is crazy. 

 

And I feel I can speak on the whole newbie thing because I left here before because of how much went towards the vets. I created, updated for a couple of weeks and was passed up by several recreates. And when I mean passed up, I mean damn near lapped. I went from a possible top half of the first draftee to being pushed late into the second (TPE wise). 

 

Well it does take certain effort to get the +5, like I mentioned before you need 2 400+ tpe players and a 3,000,000 contract. Its not like I get it to start with in my rookie year.

[Jala 922]

The pension plan isn't hard to get, a welfare only player could do it if they put in any sort of effort at all, especially with the old player store model.

 

I agree with Evans in that older players do get preferential treatment. I've heard before that the league needs these old members because recruitment and they bring the top prospects, and that's fine. But there needs to be incentive for NEW members to tryhard TPE, and that needs to be the ability to earn more than someone who's not claiming PTs. We do need to keep older members around and if they want to only claim welfare, that's great. The problem arises when they're not equal to, but very much competitive with someone who isn't just posting their name in a thread.

 

The store change was a good one in that it neutered the ability to cap your weekly TPE through the +welfare AND +590, but the fact remains that new members still have to work harder to earn 1-2 more TPE then an older member. Jobs aren't always available/forcing someone to do something they don't like to earn their weekly cap is counter-productive to having a happy member.

 

A solution I'd offer is:
Let people bank their PTs. Anyone who was around in S20-22(I think that's when I stopped writing medias) on SHL might remember my daily media on the SMJHL and my league wide overviews on all the teams prior to the start of the season. Between those and my holding 5-6 different jobs at the same time, I'll have enough money to train into my next player before I have to concern myself with money again. I was completely fresh to sim leagues and I was happy to write for days. 

 

Bring that concept here. If you have a new member who's not burnt out on PTs yet, let them write 20 medias and bank them for later. Do 20 sigs and bank them for later. The interest is there and the PT is there. This way, 3-4 seasons down the road they can start claiming these old PTs as they get fed up of doing them every week/time constraints/whatever the situation may be. There's less complaints about the old member 'not doing the same amount of work', because they had. They did the exact same PT as a new member and that's what they're claiming.

 

I've heard of this happening on other leagues, maybe even this one. If a concern is that 'people won't log on at all', they'd still have to claim it, which is effectively the exact same thing as claiming welfare.

 

The league is so old and filled with re-creates that winning an award or getting into the HoF as a first gen is nigh impossible. This basically means you want to get to a high enough point (i.e. 400 to hit the welfare mark) and then re-create, so you get that carryover and the head-start that will let you become better then the new wave of first gens and potentially welfare claimers to try and win a personal award.