Backup Rule

[Advantage 2,899]

On 11/03/2017 at 1:19 PM, Fire Hakstol said:

It shouldn't be up to the simmer to play a GM's backup goalie for 8 games. GMs don't have that much to do during the season, they should be able to manage this. 

Yet its been the case for about thirty seasons now..so most of us just usually let Jardy do it if its needed.

 

I myself just have had shit going on..but if we are all of a sudden gonna start worrying about it..make it a rule.  But this has been the standard since as long as I was GM of NY.

[Advantage 2,899]

Id say make a punishment for it and start it for next year though.  

[Devise 4,475]

Punishment over this? Pschhhhhhhhn

 

Get fucking real. 

 

In the rules clarify that GMs can choose to play their back up any of the required 8 games and whatever they don't gets simmed in the final games of the season. This isn't the bloody SHL we don't need to go all nazi over something like lines. Especially this considering the GMs who choose not to send could potentially be hurt more by having back up play un ideal games. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Devise

[Gudnason 607]

15 minutes ago, Devise said:

Punishment over this? Pschhhhhhhhn

 

Get fucking real. 

 

In the rules clarify that GMs can choose to play their back up any of the required 8 games and whatever they don't gets simmed in the final games of the season. This isn't the bloody SHL we don't need to go all nazi over something like lines. Especially this considering the GMs who choose not to send could potentially be hurt more by having back up play un ideal games. 

 

 

Why have rules if you are not going to enforce them?

 

I must admit in my opinion the simmer had a oversight as well. If the GM totally forgot, then by the eighth-last game the simmer should be putting the back-up in, even without the GM's consent, to "enforce" the rule on his end and maintain the integrity of the rules in case the opposing team had already played their backup for eight games earlier in the season.

 

As for you saying it is "punishment" by an uncompliant team having their backups forced in by the simmer, it was rather unfortunate that because of oversight by the commissioners a team that had followed the rules had their win turned into a loss through a re-sim due to their opposition overlooking the rule.

[Devise 4,475]

2 minutes ago, punkhippie said:

Why have rules if you are not going to enforce them?

 

I must admit in my opinion the simmer had a oversight as well. If the GM totally forgot, then by the eighth-last game the simmer should be putting the back-up in, even without the GM's consent, to "enforce" the rule on his end and maintain the integrity of the rules in case the opposing team had already played their backup for eight games earlier in the season.

 

As for you saying it is "punishment" by an uncompliant team having their backups forced in by the simmer, it was rather unfortunate that because of oversight by the commissioners a team that had followed the rules had their win turned into a loss through a re-sim due to their opposition overlooking the rule.

 

Yeah but that is just because STHS is a fickle beast. I mean New York pummeled Stockholm with Degrath in net for example, and in the resim then only managed 2 goals on STO G, the far worse back up. 

 

But even if the win had turned into a loss it's overall impact on the standings was pretty negligible. Keep in mind though in the past when we've had re sims more often than not Jardy or the simmer in question tries to replicate the original results as best as possible in terms of wins and score. That is of course depending on why the resim happened. We've had it where only a game or two needed the proper re sim, so the other games that get resimmed around it, as I mentioned get kind of tailored to replicate as similar a result as possible. Always the same team will win.

 

But this situation is different. It wasn't just a few teams that had the back ups not play the games, starters across the board were in the game for almost every team sans I literally think just 2 or 3 of us. That means the entire sim is irrelevant. It's stats are all false, because all of it's illegal. So you can't take the new sim as this asterisk because the in game conditions changed in every single game, with the goalie change happening. 

 

As for why have rules if your not going to enforce them. We are enforcing them, although none of the back up stuff I believe is actually formally listed. Enforcing them is ensuring the back ups play eight games a season. The decision to not be so strict on our GM's about it has to do with a lot more factors than just "well GM's should have to do this." It's very easy for people to come on here and say "well it doesn't take that much effort." I agree, I had my back ups games played by like the second week of the season as I mentioned in this thread. But we've had countless examples of GM in-activity at key times even from active GM's due to life issues and over the years it's always been just agreed upon among the GM's that if you do not set your back up to play all of his games, whatever needs to be played will be played in the final games of the season. 

 

Listing that as a formal rule is fine, and enforcing that will be just as simple as setting the goalies to do so by the simmer in the sim near the last 8 games of the season. If it gets missed? Of course it gets re simmed. That isn't that complicated. But ultimately the rigid stance over this is rather inflexible considering how hard it has been for us to not only find GM's but keep and maintain them. I really don't think you guys understand the current GM climate. Yes a lot of us are long tenured veterans, but the majority of us had all stepped down with no intentions of doing it again. Now we obviously all have some of our own motivations for coming back, but I can assure you that from what I saw in the BoG even seasons ago there was a consensus that we needed more GM's in the league, and I can't speak for everyone but I know for myself it was "eh let's do this again just to make sure we have quality faces GMing franchises."

 

The piont I'm making here is that if we start getting harsh on something as simple and fixable as back up goalies, and literally punish franchises for it with assets like picks, why would a future GM want to take over a team like that so badly managed? And how quickly would that add up? Bad GM forgets to do it, suffers a pick, next season struggles, goes inactive so it doesn't get done again, suffers another pick. In a world where we have a hard time getting people to GM a team how is then throwing a badly managed franchise with lost assets going to help that? And this all over a fucking back up playing 8 games which the simmer and the rest of the league can easily watch and go "hey lets throw him in the last eight."

 

This conversation is silly. No punishment should ever be dolled out over something as silly and simple as this imo. 

[Beketov 9,095]

Personally I'm fine with the "punishment" just being that the GM loses the choice over what games the backup plays. If they really need to win their last 3 or something but don't do their lines earlier then guess who's in for those games?

 

I don't think punishing them any further would be necessary and @Devise nailed down exactly why.

 

I wasn't even bringing this up because I wanted to see them punished, I just want things to be fair. If it was all non-playoff teams or something that doesn't matter then whatever. But when you have a team like Stockholm involved that are in a race for the victory cup and the first round bye it can make a difference to have that backup playing or not.

 

I think that normally Jardy would auto-do it and that's fine. It was just bad luck that he happened to be going away right at game 64.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

2 hours ago, Advantage said:

Yet its been the case for about thirty seasons now..so most of us just usually let Jardy do it if its needed.

 

I myself just have had shit going on..but if we are all of a sudden gonna start worrying about it..make it a rule.  But this has been the standard since as long as I was GM of NY.

 

Yeah, I know it's been acceptable in the past for the simmer to just do it, but my point is that it isn't something that they should have to worry about. 

[Gudnason 607]

1 hour ago, Devise said:

 

Yeah but that is just because STHS is a fickle beast. I mean New York pummeled Stockholm with Degrath in net for example, and in the resim then only managed 2 goals on STO G, the far worse back up. 

 

But even if the win had turned into a loss it's overall impact on the standings was pretty negligible. Keep in mind though in the past when we've had re sims more often than not Jardy or the simmer in question tries to replicate the original results as best as possible in terms of wins and score. That is of course depending on why the resim happened. We've had it where only a game or two needed the proper re sim, so the other games that get resimmed around it, as I mentioned get kind of tailored to replicate as similar a result as possible. Always the same team will win.

 

But this situation is different. It wasn't just a few teams that had the back ups not play the games, starters across the board were in the game for almost every team sans I literally think just 2 or 3 of us. That means the entire sim is irrelevant. It's stats are all false, because all of it's illegal. So you can't take the new sim as this asterisk because the in game conditions changed in every single game, with the goalie change happening. 

 

As for why have rules if your not going to enforce them. We are enforcing them, although none of the back up stuff I believe is actually formally listed. Enforcing them is ensuring the back ups play eight games a season. The decision to not be so strict on our GM's about it has to do with a lot more factors than just "well GM's should have to do this." It's very easy for people to come on here and say "well it doesn't take that much effort." I agree, I had my back ups games played by like the second week of the season as I mentioned in this thread. But we've had countless examples of GM in-activity at key times even from active GM's due to life issues and over the years it's always been just agreed upon among the GM's that if you do not set your back up to play all of his games, whatever needs to be played will be played in the final games of the season. 

 

Listing that as a formal rule is fine, and enforcing that will be just as simple as setting the goalies to do so by the simmer in the sim near the last 8 games of the season. If it gets missed? Of course it gets re simmed. That isn't that complicated. But ultimately the rigid stance over this is rather inflexible considering how hard it has been for us to not only find GM's but keep and maintain them. I really don't think you guys understand the current GM climate. Yes a lot of us are long tenured veterans, but the majority of us had all stepped down with no intentions of doing it again. Now we obviously all have some of our own motivations for coming back, but I can assure you that from what I saw in the BoG even seasons ago there was a consensus that we needed more GM's in the league, and I can't speak for everyone but I know for myself it was "eh let's do this again just to make sure we have quality faces GMing franchises."

 

The piont I'm making here is that if we start getting harsh on something as simple and fixable as back up goalies, and literally punish franchises for it with assets like picks, why would a future GM want to take over a team like that so badly managed? And how quickly would that add up? Bad GM forgets to do it, suffers a pick, next season struggles, goes inactive so it doesn't get done again, suffers another pick. In a world where we have a hard time getting people to GM a team how is then throwing a badly managed franchise with lost assets going to help that? And this all over a fucking back up playing 8 games which the simmer and the rest of the league can easily watch and go "hey lets throw him in the last eight."

 

This conversation is silly. No punishment should ever be dolled out over something as silly and simple as this imo. 

 

Well the real world must be a fickle beast too. Because otherwise I would be a multi-millionaire betting on sports already.

[Advantage 2,899]

38 minutes ago, Fire Hakstol said:

 

Yeah, I know it's been acceptable in the past for the simmer to just do it, but my point is that it isn't something that they should have to worry about. 

Then they should say something and not allow it for 30 plus seasons.

[Frank 5,245]

I think @Devise's punishment should be universal. Every time one of us forgets to play our back up, we chain Devise to a mall bench until closing. 

[ASIANBOUBABI 173]

Automatically use the backups for the first 8 games of the season for every team. Problem solved!

 

 Yes, joking.

[Devise 4,475]

18 minutes ago, Frank said:

I think @Devise's punishment should be universal. Every time one of us forgets to play our back up, we chain Devise to a mall bench until closing. 

 

I'd be much more up for bombarding everyone with walls of tens of thousands of words in their PM Inbox that they have to podcast read out loud every time they forget to play their back up eight games. 

[hedgehog337 3,483]

I'm not trying to be a snake against our next oponents, Helsinki...but didn't Moon start in 65 games instead of 64? Unless the backup rule was changed. @Higgins @Da Trollfecta @Beketov

 

[Gudnason 607]

8 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

I'm not trying to be a snake against our next oponents, Helsinki...but didn't Moon start in 65 games instead of 64? Unless the backup rule was changed. @Higgins @Da Trollfecta @Beketov

 

HSK G gets forced in for Game 1, posts a shutout, and Higgins decides to roll with the hot hand. HSK G leads the Titans to the conference finals vs Stockholm.

[Gudnason 607]

@Da Trollfecta - 20 shutouts*

[hedgehog337 3,483]

1 minute ago, punkhippie said:

HSK G gets forced in for Game 1, posts a shutout, and Higgins decides to roll with the hot hand. HSK G leads the Titans to the conference finals vs Stockholm.

 

And then they win the Continental Cup with HSK G and Moon gets traded. 

[Gudnason 607]

2 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

And then they win the Continental Cup with HSK G and Moon gets traded. 

 

Then @Advantage offers STO G for HSK G because he's got the Continental Cup experience and veteran presence.

[hedgehog337 3,483]

Just now, punkhippie said:

 

Then @Advantage offers STO G for HSK G because he's got the Continental Cup experience and veteran presence.

 

I'm sure Higgins will refuse that. 

[STZ 5,386]

On 2017-3-11 at 10:54 AM, Higgins said:

Make STO G play his 2 games in the playoffs and I'm fine with it.

 

#FREEHELG

[Da Trifecta 1,902]

You guys are too blind to see that HEL G played in 8 games right?

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Da Trollfecta

[hedgehog337 3,483]

5 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

You guys are too blind to see that HEL G played in 8 games right?

 

 

This shit was confusing to me in last season, but I assume the backup has to start 8 times. @Will @Higgins might clarify this. 

[Da Trifecta 1,902]

1 minute ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

This shit was confusing to me in last season, but I assume the backup has to start 8 times. @Will @Higgins might clarify this. 

 

Do you not see 8 GP for HEL G?

[Beketov 9,095]

1 minute ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Do you not see 8 GP for HEL G?

8GP =/= 8 Starts

[hedgehog337 3,483]

Just now, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Do you not see 8 GP for HEL G?

 

2 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

This shit was confusing to me in last season, but I assume the backup has to start 8 times. @Will @Higgins might clarify this. 

 

On 11.03.2017 at 6:00 PM, Higgins said:

There's a sweet stat for goalies that shows game started (ST) in the stat line 

[Higgins 3,618]

True. There must have been a game where Moon was pulled and then the Titans scored to tie the game, but HEL G let in the losing goal and was credited with the GP without the start.