Game of Thrones

[Devise 4,475]

9 minutes ago, Tyler said:

 

I think by plot armour we mean the fact that so many main characters obviously should have died but survived because the plot needs them to. That's fine but it's inconsistent by the logic of the show through the first 4 seasons. If you make mistakes you suffer consequences, that just doesn't happen anymore at least not to the degree they used to. Jon should have died when he was surrounded by like 200 dead guys. Jamie was over whelmed he should have died. Brienne should have died like 3 times. Sam was literally lying on the ground crying but he survived. It really makes no sense. And that's not even getting in to the fact that the most superstitious/anti magic people on the show (dothraki) have no issue with a magic person using magic to make their swords catch on fire. Also whose idea was it to have them charge in to the night like that? Like come on lol. 

 

 And Arya going full Naruto to run passed the other dead guys was dumb, but par for the course with the show at this point.

 

The writers are too cowardly to kill characters people like. Kind of sucks considering how the writing was with GRRM.

 

 

I mean I absolutely recognize the plot armour that does exist for sure. It's just, especially surrounding Bran, any of the "magical" characters or even the dragons, there has always been like a circular or prophecy nature to things. The things people call out as the "miracle moments" that keep those key characters alive but are super telegraphed and set up. At some point, at least to me it feels like it being obvious is the point. It's obvious because it was set up to be that way by some of the players involved. Melisandre knowing that Arya was the one to kill the NK pretty much confirms she knew on some levels stuff that only Bran has demonstrated knowledge of. Like even your criticism of her lighting the swords on fire and them charging while tactfully that makes no sense from a win the battle perspective it did play into the overall stall, which seemed to be the entire point as the battle progressed. 

 

Anyway at the end of the day it very much felt to me like all the plot armour characters completely expended it in this episode. The show always had reasons for the plot armor and was even brazen enough to straight raise Jon from the dead to hammer home the idea that all these broken characters were being brought together for a reason. That reason was what happened in the last episode for the majority of the characters imo. So it stands to reason that any plot armour going forward is probably gone. One of the things that I think is interesting to note is that despite the fact that the characters act reckless and suffer no consequences in some of these battle situations as you point out, the look on their faces and reactions indicate shock or being surprised that they do not suffer them. If anything you could argue that it is more likely that the miracle moments afforded to these prophecy heroes will build confidence going forward, which will likely lead to many poetic/hubris deaths. Some pieces of which are already in play. Especially once you consider that for the majority of these plot characters all that purpose is like fulfilled. I'm not saying that for sure means it's all out politics and intrigue for the remainder, we do know there is a battle between the two sides. But I do think we'll get a bit more a return to form of older stuff now that the larger than life mystical threat was taken care of. 

[Baozi 1,658]

I loved how Arya shanked NK. The buildup was enough for me there that I knew it was coming, right after Melis said Beric's destiny was to bring her there. I already knew she was going to do the deed assassin style. 

 

Also anyone else notice that every time Grey Worm is at the start of the line and when the zombies hit the front the line he magically appears in the back row again?  In all the early combat scenes lol.

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

All I can think off how bad of a pet owner Jon is.

 

First he had a doggo. His bestest friend in the whole world. Enter new gf. Gf has dragons. And suddenly he is a dragon person and doggo is ignored....

 

Much sad

[Quik 4,113]

41 minutes ago, Green said:

All I can think off how bad of a pet owner Jon is.

 

First he had a doggo. His bestest friend in the whole world. Enter new gf. Gf has dragons. And suddenly he is a dragon person and doggo is ignored....

 

Much sad

 

Probably lost both doggo and draggo on the same night, too

[Beketov 9,033]

8 minutes ago, Quik said:

 

Probably lost both doggo and draggo on the same night, too

Nah, pretty sure both dragons were shown in the episode 4 trailer so I think they’re both fine. Ghost was supposedly in it but I never saw him. I’m they kill Ghost in that charge like all the Dothraki I’m gonna be pissed, poor doggo deserves better.

[Quik 4,113]

29 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Nah, pretty sure both dragons were shown in the episode 4 trailer so I think they’re both fine. Ghost was supposedly in it but I never saw him. I’m they kill Ghost in that charge like all the Dothraki I’m gonna be pissed, poor doggo deserves better.

Haven't watched the trailer, so that's cool I guess lol

 

The entire strategy of charging was stupid, Ghost being on the front lines, instead of something like guarding the women/children/Tryion/Ballless, was just icing on that shit cake.

[Beaviss 4,957]

Relevant

[Beketov 9,033]

44 minutes ago, Quik said:

Haven't watched the trailer, so that's cool I guess lol

 

The entire strategy of charging was stupid, Ghost being on the front lines, instead of something like guarding the women/children/Tryion/Ballless, was just icing on that shit cake.

Oh yeah, their strategy made no sense aside from “hit wights with dragon fire” and that went out the window pretty quickly. Like they knew it was a huge force coming at them that had basically no strategy, just numbers. Why would you charge directly at that? Work the flanks that they clearly will not be protecting.

 

Them actually doing well wouldn’t have been as dramatic as all the burning Arak’s being extinguished I guess though.

[Beketov 9,033]

16 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

Relevant

I mean she did but considering they were literally locked down there with the dead I’d say more survived than is remotely reasonable.

[Beaviss 4,957]

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Oh yeah, their strategy made no sense aside from “hit wights with dragon fire” and that went out the window pretty quickly. Like they knew it was a huge force coming at them that had basically no strategy, just numbers. Why would you charge directly at that? Work the flanks that they clearly will not be protecting.

 

Them actually doing well wouldn’t have been as dramatic as all the burning Arak’s being extinguished I guess though.

 

Its a show for entertainment and drama not a military simulation. If it was a real situation you would use the walls more to your advantage than having half your forces outside.

[Quik 4,113]

1 minute ago, Beaviss said:

 

Its a show for entertainment and drama not a military simulation. If it was a real situation you would use the walls more to your advantage than having half your forces outside.

 

I mean, I'm 99% sure the point of them being outside the wall was to lure them into a false sense of security while Bran waited for NK. It's just dumb. The fire moat would have been just as effective at slowing them down, if not moreso, and saved the manpower for the 2nd wave. Instead, they were just like "here, take our Dothraki, who have the advantage of being on horses, and add them to your army of wights..."

[Beketov 9,033]

11 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

Its a show for entertainment and drama not a military simulation. If it was a real situation you would use the walls more to your advantage than having half your forces outside.

I get that but they specifically talked strategy in episode 2 with Brienne controlling the left flank and then completely ignored it and instead just stood there getting beaten on.

 

Having an initial force outside the walls does actually make some sense if they assumed they could take some of the forces down. The wall offers a retreat. If you start there you have nowhere to go if you get swarmed. By starting outside they could take some out before they had to barricade themselves in.

[Beaviss 4,957]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

I get that but they specifically talked strategy in episode 2 with Brienne controlling the left flank and then completely ignored it and instead just stood there getting beaten on.

 

Having an initial force outside the walls does actually make some sense if they assumed they could take some of the forces down. The wall offers a retreat. If you start there you have nowhere to go if you get swarmed. By starting outside they could take some out before they had to barricade themselves in.

 

My argument is that its a show not a military simulator so that's why it was as messy as it was. Its a very large battle for entertainment not something designed by Sun Tzu

[Beketov 9,033]

24 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

My argument is that its a show not a military simulator so that's why it was as messy as it was. Its a very large battle for entertainment not something designed by Sun Tzu

I’m saying if it was a real situation they wouldn’t have hidden behind the walls either; they went for some strategy to it anyway. Plus every other major battle we’ve seen has had much more strategy than “run at them blindly”

[Banackock 8,062]

I hope you all have kleenex next week beside you. I'll be the first to admit they were sneaky but predictable starting off with Ser Jorah and that speech Jon gave motivated the shit out of me. I didn't quite tear up but I was fighting them back kinda for whatever reason. Decent episode. Very interesting shit going on.

 

Next Sunday gonna fuck us - hope they use lube. Whose it gonna be?  Jon V Dany? Another Dragon? Tyrion or Varys? Maybe some of both? Maybe all? Arya? Sansa? 

 

 

 

[Devise 4,475]

Yeah that episode was probably the most Game of Thrones episode of all time. I feel like it featured every theme/element style good and bad of the last several seasons of the show. Everything from inspiring battle speeches and comedic pay off moments to old school political stuff. All the way back around to fast plot pacing and Euron the ultimate ambusher, logic be damned. Still a lot to like in there, but I think it's starting to get more obvious that we are not meant to like these characters, a high majority of them anyways. Or maybe some of that is just because the writing is getting very on the nose. Them killing off one of the other dragons in a very quik style fashion was even more of a signal that the Night King moment was also super intentional. Like not just hey this is bad writing we don't know what to do. But hey this is meant to be like when we killed Ned, like "haha fuck you if you thought the Night King was a big deal." Feels like for sure the whole circle of magic or whatever the hell is happening with magic in this world is like...ending now. Davos even had a line about it while celebrating to Tyrion something to the effect of feeling used by the gods/lord of light to fight an enemy and then it all fucks off. 

 

I'm sure we all have ways we'd love to see things end, and yeah I'm probably certain we'll see Cleganebowl and it could be very good. But I still kind of think it might be most fitting if a high majority of characters on all sides just straight died and nobody sat on the throne. I've heard the writers reference Shakespeare enough that it isn't hard to see several poetic or very hubris ways for them to kill off most of the characters. 

 

That said, fucking Euron. Worst villain in the show, who probably could of been an effective henchmen villain if you know he was surrounded by anything interesting. Lena Headley despite being the shows best villain forever now has been given very little to do, it's mostly been her internalizing and campy mcdouche pirate chewing scenery. The worst part yet is the show doesn't really seem intent on making it seem like Euron is any deeper. He's just a douchey pirate, the least original thing ever, with the ability to apparently show up behind any rock or crevice with magic fleet surprise. Reminds me of how they doubled down on the Ramsey is crazy aspects when they really started to lose him as a villain. Anyway, going to be interesting to see how things wrap up. 

[Banackock 8,062]

@Devise I don't know how I didn't grasp the moment during the episode... but he wants to put a prince inside her, right? And she's already pregnant and he was eyeing her up... and I somehow missed that - but there's no way he's going to be okay with that. I think with all the other tension they built during that/those scenes - that was maybe a part of their goal. You knew right away Cersei was gonna push her off the ledge, but they built suspense maybe so others wouldn't catch what was going on elsewhere. Lots is going to go on.

 

Danaerys is starting to look like the Mad King and I have this weird feeling that despite running off to Cersei and having that whole scene with Brienne.. I don't know.. the show likes to blow the minds of fans and really, every time Jamie goes running back to his sister and has done wicked/evil things for her - you're almost expecting it.. but something tells me maybe he puts an end to her. #FanTheory  

 

Now that I reread the first little bit - maybe Danaerys goes mad and Euron signs up with her? I highly doubt it but SOMETHING is going to happen there. He may see that he's being used and definitely doesn't want another line to the throne via a lannister kid (purebred too, not even a mutt).

[BOOM 8,759]

Who the hell is the "New Prince of Dorn"? 

 

They could have given him a name. 

 

As for the bolts from Eurons ship. They are better than hellfire or sidewinder missiles. Fuck me. I kept thinking that Dany could flank the fleet, but I was probably wrong. 

[Ahma 1,431]

3 hours ago, BOOM said:

Who the hell is the "New Prince of Dorn"? 

 

They could have given him a name. 

 

As for the bolts from Eurons ship. They are better than hellfire or sidewinder missiles. Fuck me. I kept thinking that Dany could flank the fleet, but I was probably wrong. 

Probably didn't bother naming him because he's so insignificant 

[Quik 4,113]

15 hours ago, Banackock said:

Now that I reread the first little bit - maybe Danaerys goes mad and Euron signs up with her? I highly doubt it but SOMETHING is going to happen there. He may see that he's being used and definitely doesn't want another line to the throne via a lannister kid (purebred too, not even a mutt).

 

Euron definitely caught on to Tyrion mentioning Cersei's preggers. He's supposed to have some kind of magic, which explains all his victories at sea, and be really smart. My bet is he plays it close to the chest. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up on the throne, either, at this point. He's had no character building, but he's so damn OP that I wouldn't put it past them.

 

I think his magic being pretty unexplained in the show is what throws shit off. Without the explanation of magic, there's no way Dany should have fallen for another fucking ambush. She should have seen them well before they got into position to fire, and there's no way the bolts, with that much power, should have 100% accuracy on a moving dragon, yet comically miss the other one completely. Apparently someone did the math, and they had 3x the amount of force of Saturn V, a fucking rocket engine...

[Tyler 885]

54 minutes ago, Quik said:

 

Euron definitely caught on to Tyrion mentioning Cersei's preggers. He's supposed to have some kind of magic, which explains all his victories at sea, and be really smart. My bet is he plays it close to the chest. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up on the throne, either, at this point. He's had no character building, but he's so damn OP that I wouldn't put it past them.

 

I think his magic being pretty unexplained in the show is what throws shit off. Without the explanation of magic, there's no way Dany should have fallen for another fucking ambush. She should have seen them well before they got into position to fire, and there's no way the bolts, with that much power, should have 100% accuracy on a moving dragon, yet comically miss the other one completely. Apparently someone did the math, and they had 3x the amount of force of Saturn V, a fucking rocket engine...

 

I think you're giving way too much credit to the character of Euron and the writers here. He gets victories at sea because the plot requires him too. It's nothing more then that. 

 

She fell for the ambush b ecause, in the words of the creators, she FORGOT about the fleet lol

 

[Tyler 885]

It's the same reason why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion when he was standing there alone exposed 30 feet from everyone else. She literally hired someone to kill him (who somehow just waltzed right in to the castle with a loaded crossbow lol) and then has a chance to kill him herself and uhhh doesn't do it. It makes no sense anymore it's all just to move the plot, which whatever that's what it's become, but people pretending it's still as good as it used to be with competent writing is hilarious.

 

There is, in a word, no consequence for shitty actions because the plot requires certain characters to be alive and because the writers still want to have their epic moments. The battle episode remains probably the worst episode of a TV show I've ever watched. Can't believe people enjoy watching people constantly be on the verge of dying for the camera to literally just cut away then come back and everything is fine lol. Takes any tension out of it when you know no one is going to die.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Tyler

[rjfryman 1,120]

Just now, Tyler said:

Also someone has to explain to me why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion when he was standing there alone exposed 30 feet from everyone else. She literally hired someone to kill him (who somehow just waltzed right in to the castle with a loaded crossbow lol) and then has a chance to kill him herself and uhhh doesn't do it. 

She has those giant Ballistae all over the place. you would think she could have one person slowly aim toward Daenerys and shoot and just end the battle early or at least make it so people would not care about the fight as much.

[Tyler 885]

2 minutes ago, rjfryman said:

She has those giant Ballistae all over the place. you would think she could have one person slowly aim toward Daenerys and shoot and just end the battle early or at least make it so people would not care about the fight as much.

 

Yea exactly lol. They didn't do it because they couldn't follow through on their plot. I just wonder how people can watch the early seasons where everything made sense and still think of this in par with that. It's fan fiction.

 

I guess we can't expect much from the guys who brought us X Men Origins, but I still expected a bit more consistency and following of their own established logic.

[eaglesfan036 4,603]

They just forgot about the Iron Fleet