The Great League File Debate [Formerly S65 VHLM Index]

[Esso2264 774]

wtf is happening

[Dil 1,760]

The copy pasta I could get from this thread... 

[Jubo 1,839]

It's a shame this thread isn't locked down to GM's only, this is an unfortunately bad look from those looking from the outside in. Let's all calm down and worry about our own teams and our own agendas. Big season coming up with two new expansions. It's going to be a more competitive atmosphere with the talent more spread throughout.

[Nykonax 1,563]

1 hour ago, BladeMaiden said:

life isn't fair ppl recruit friends who will only join one team or will recreate or go inactive wasting picks or waivers of other GMs

Okay, first off are you saying people recruit other people to purposely go inactive and sabotage GM's. Second off when you recruit a friend wouldn't they want to join you, it's like inviting a friend to your house to hangout with your sibling. It makes no sense why they would do that. And its perfectly fair that I've recruited people who I know will be active, and that they joined my team. Your making it sound like its cheating, when its not. It's just plain good strategy, no different from drafting actives over inactives.

 

1 hour ago, BladeMaiden said:

How is me Drafting someone with sim experience who can help me out any different than nyko recruiting 8 ppl he can guarantee will be active

Because simming is completley different from being active. Simming you can keep going till you win, which sucks the fun out of it. Recruiting just gives me active players, no different from getting active players off of waivers or the draft.

 

1 hour ago, BladeMaiden said:

I really think a preseason is in order for the VHLM, who care if we are a "development league

Agreed, we can have a pre-season so that people can test their lines

 

1 hour ago, Sonnet said:

after which, they'll become DAILY

hah good one

 

21 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

One of the best parts about watching the VHL finals this past season was talking with Quik about how he wanted to adjust the lines going forward. There was uncertainty, there was doubt, and he had to trust his gut to make a decision about how to approach each and every game. In between games 6 and 7, we had a talk about changing things up, even though our previous strategy had been working in previous games. Should we risk it and try something new (because we'd lost 3 games in a row, surely something had to change), or should we stick to what's seen results (because that's how we got 3 wins in the first place)?

Much agreed. When I was in the WC one of the best parts was changing my lines because of say a bad powerplay, seeing how it reacted. Then having to decide wheter changing it or not would be beneficial. If I was able to test sim 100 times and know the result that would've sucked the fun out of it imo. If you want to go to a league where you can test sim the shit out of every single thing go to the NSHL

 

15 minutes ago, SlashACM said:

The point of GMing isn't to watch how the sim unfolds, it's to act and react

Which is what exactly happens when you don't have the sim file. React to what happens in the game, and then make changes accordingly, not to your bajillion test sims.

 

8 minutes ago, BladeMaiden said:

GMs do test lines constantly, it is called practice and NHL teams actually do that quite regularly

But that isn't against other teams. You can still guess how you'll match up by looking at the other team's players and strats, and then react accordingly. There's some hardwork you can do. Other team is super offensive? Change your strategies to be more defensive, etc.

 

thanks for coming to my ted talk

Edited February 27, 2019 by Nykonax

[Dil 1,760]

Okay let me lighten the mood for ya’ll hot heads

[Peace 1,525]

I’m in agreement with Sonnet here. 

 

Also agree with Jubo.

 

Lock the thread. @Commissioner

[SlashACM 38]

1 minute ago, Nykonax said:

 

Which is what exactly happens when you don't have the sim file. React to what happens in the game, and then make changes accordingly, not to your bajillion test sims.

 

Why are you so worried about GMs sucking the fun out of it by test simming. Some GMs have fun by knowing they made the best lines they had and going into the season/series with confidence instead of just hoping. If someone wants to wing it they are allowed to by all means, I just think the file should be available to those who want it

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

10 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

 

You're an absolute fucking twat to call out my work ethic in literally any way. I've worked myself to the point of literally wanting to die over these last few weeks, and to have you sit here and proudly proclaim "ha, see? he just doesn't want to work!" is the most fucking insulting thing to not only me on this site, but me going through the roughest, most fucking rigorous month I've ever had.

 

You can sit here and be snarky and ride atop your high blue collar horse, but trying to call me out for my unwillingness to work is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

And YES! NHL teams DO practice! But they don't get to practice in perfect game situations against the exact opponents they expect to end up facing. There's a massive difference, but if the shit's already available to you and you want to use it, then fucking fine. I don't give a shit.

I am calling you out romanticizing things and  forcing your opinion on  the league like it is the right one.  

 

Don't you dare think you get to swear at me and hurl vulgar language at me when I have been reigning myself in, have some self control. You are better than this, that i do know. (i've been having an amazingly bad couple of months and that is no excuse for what is happening here)

Edited February 27, 2019 by BladeMaiden

[Dil 1,760]

✦ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　　

.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　ﾟ　 .　　　　　　　　　　　　　.

　　　　　　,　　　　　　　.　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 *　　　　　　　　　.
　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ✦ 
　 ,　　　　　　　　　*　　   ,　　　 ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ .　　　　　
　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ˚　　　
　 ,　　　　　　　　　　　 .　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*
　　 ✦
　　 .　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　 . 
　 .　　　　 .　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　

　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　ﾟ　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　     
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　 *
.　　　　　 .　　　　　　　　　　 ✦
　　　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*　　　　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　 ✦
.　　　　　　　　　　 ✦
　　　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*　　　　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　 ✦ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　　

.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　ﾟ　 .

guys look it’s space. Let’s focus on this and stop fighting

[Nykonax 1,563]

5 minutes ago, DilIsPickle said:

✦ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　　

.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　ﾟ　 .　　　　　　　　　　　　　.

　　　　　　,　　　　　　　.　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 *　　　　　　　　　.
　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ✦ 
　 ,　　　　　　　　　*　　   ,　　　 ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ .　　　　　
　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ˚　　　
　 ,　　　　　　　　　　　 .　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*
　　 ✦
　　 .　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　 . 
　 .　　　　 .　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　

　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　ﾟ　　　　　.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　     
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　 *
.　　　　　 .　　　　　　　　　　 ✦
　　　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*　　　　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　 ✦
.　　　　　　　　　　 ✦
　　　˚　　　　　　　　　　　　　　*　　　　　　
.　　　　　　　　　　　　　　. 
　　 ✦ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ,　　

.　　　　　　　　　　　　　.　　　ﾟ　 .

guys look it’s space. Let’s focus on this and stop fighting

can we fight in space, like star wars?

[Dil 1,760]

2 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

can we fight in space, like star wars?

Request approved 

[Peace 1,525]

1 minute ago, Nykonax said:

like star wars?

 

How DARE you.

 

like Battlestar: Galactica?

 

FTFY

[Nykonax 1,563]

Just now, Peace said:

 

How DARE you.

 

like Battlestar: Galactica? 

 

FTFY

bears. beats. battlestar: galactica

[Dil 1,760]

8 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

bears. beats. battlestar: galactica

It’s actuwlly beats before bears. You uncultured swine

[Nykonax 1,563]

4 minutes ago, DilIsPickle said:

It’s actuwlly beats before bears. You uncultured swine

https://youtu.be/WaaANll8h18?t=37

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Nykonax

[Dil 1,760]

1 minute ago, Nykonax said:

https://youtu.be/WaaANll8h18?t=37

 

Oh my. My apologies. Accept this cookie  

[Peace 1,525]

4 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

https://youtu.be/WaaANll8h18?t=37

 

 

I didn’t even know that existed, but it’s not a joke! 

 

MICHEAL! 

[Nykonax 1,563]

Just now, Peace said:

 

I didn’t even know that existed, but it’s not a joke! 

 

MICHEAL!  

oh you think your funny?

 

MICHAEL!

[Beketov 9,021]

Holy clusterfuck Batman what did you guys do in here while I was asleep? I stopped reading in full about halfway through page 2 but I’ll try and hit the highlights.

 

1. If you can test with the client it’s well within your rights to do so but I won’t be releasing the league file. It’s sinoly security reasons, that is an entire copy of our league, I would rather not have it in the Wild and it’s obviously not necessary. Historically test sims have meant next to nothing though because you can only mess with your lines and strats and stuff. You have no way of knowing what your opponent will do. For example @Jubo07 replaces his lines basically every day so good luck figuring him out.

 

2. Historically the VHLM hasn’t had a pre-season so I didn’t create one. Half the time in the league’s history the VHL didn’t even have one. As far as I know once you make the pro schedule you can’t go back and retroactively add a pre-season. Normally I don’t make the schedule before the index drops but then everyone complains about not being able to copy their lines so a I made it this time. I can probably go in and give you guys a few exhibition games but it won’t be comprehensive (against every other team) and the stats won’t save. It’s uo to you. Pre-season historically has been pretty meaningless.

 

3. I’ll add this Fish clone but I wish I understood the scenario more. @Will Do we need to make him through the portal or can it pick up players from the sim? I also assume I’ll need to change his name to not create a conflict and that his VHLM stats won’t be added to his player page this season since he’ll technically be a different player and in both leagues.

[Eudaldkp 160]

Holy shit we can't go a week without drama can't we lmao

 

Anyways, I'm on the no sim tests ship, it doesn't make any sense to be able to do so. As Sonnet and others have stated, part of the fun of being a GM is adjusting to situations, I think if we can test sim everything that takes some fun out of GMing. And ok, nobody is going to make me test sim, but if I don't and others do, I'll have obligated to do so cause I want to be as competitive as possible, but I don't want to run hundreds of test sims to figure out which lines are the best, that's not even close to fun.

[Beketov 9,021]

31 minutes ago, Eudaldkp said:

Holy shit we can't go a week without drama can't we lmao

 

Anyways, I'm on the no sim tests ship, it doesn't make any sense to be able to do so. As Sonnet and others have stated, part of the fun of being a GM is adjusting to situations, I think if we can test sim everything that takes some fun out of GMing. And ok, nobody is going to make me test sim, but if I don't and others do, I'll have obligated to do so cause I want to be as competitive as possible, but I don't want to run hundreds of test sims to figure out which lines are the best, that's not even close to fun.

Honestly if it can be done in the client and people want to that's fine but take the results with a grain of salt because there's no guarantee that the other team won't change anything. Plus when things are competitive STHS has a tendency to change more often than not so you won't usually get the same result twice.

[majesiu 58]

3 hours ago, Beketov said:

1. If you can test with the client it’s well within your rights to do so but I won’t be releasing the league file. It’s sinoly security reasons, that is an entire copy of our league, I would rather not have it in the Wild and it’s obviously not necessary. 

1

 

I can't think of any security reasons (you can strip the file of any sensitive information, and release that version for testing) and the locking users from sim file creates one rather obvious conclusion. It's paramount to every sim-league transparency to give users clear insight into what's really going behind the scenes with the periodic release of the league file. Whether STHS is random or not is a bit outside of the scope since every engine has a bit of variety into it to at least somewhat mimic real life, but you can at least maximize your team chances and draw meaningful conclusions.

[Beketov 9,021]

5 minutes ago, majesiu said:

 

I can't think of any security reasons (you can strip the file of any sensitive information, and release that version for testing) and the locking users from sim file creates one rather obvious conclusion. It's paramount to every sim-league transparency to give users clear insight into what's really going behind the scenes with the periodic release of the league file. Whether STHS is random or not is a bit outside of the scope since every engine has a bit of variety into it to at least somewhat mimic real life, but you can at least maximize your team chances and draw meaningful conclusions.

The file won't be up to date if we release one and it won't be a simple or quick process if we need to keep changing it o release versions. We aren't hiding anything (aside from the slightly sensitive stuff you mention) that the index doesn't receive it's just minimizing risk when ultimately there's no benefit. If the client side can do it why need the server side file? If you couldn't test client side then maybe but since that's apparently possible what harm is there in not releasing it? I just don't see what insight it offers since you'd need to pay for and download STHS to even be able to open the file and even then all you'd get is the same information that you can get from the index. I don't mind sharing some screenshots if there's something you, for some reason, want to see but I see no reason the league as a whole needs access to the files; it doesn't offer anything.

[Beketov 9,021]

If anything testing with the client gets you more up to date information than me releasing a file now that won't be updated for the rest of the season. I see no reason why there should even be an argument here. The option as it's been described above can still be used apparently (I've never used the client, I can't say for sure) and if GM's want to test they can. If they don't want to test they don't have to. All having the server side version does is allow you to mess with other teams which doesn't make sense anyway.

 

I guess I should probably also explain my security concerns. It's not so much information, there's not much in there. Chances are it's also mostly my own paranoia. However the league has been brought down before so I don't expect there's no possible way our server files could be hacked. If someone has the file and hacks their way into the server suddenly they can completely change the outcome of games and seasons. Is that a likely scenario? Not at all but it could happen. Someone could also just take it and literally clone our league for their own benefit; again unlikely but it could happen. However unlikely these scenarios they are still risks with 0 reward. I'm not gonna go and ban a GM for test simming, that would be ridiculous. However that doesn't mean I need to provide them the file when other methods easily exist that they can use without putting the league at risk.

 

Like I said, if there's some kind of transparency you think we need @majesiu I will gladly take some screenshots for you and redact stuff if I deem it sensitive (GM emails and such) but I'm not sure what you expect to see that the index, portal, or client doesn't already provide.

[majesiu 58]

You need the league file to be able to test, you won't be able to do it from the client file you get from the index. I think you confused the paragraphs before where it was talked that you don't need paid license to test, as it's needed only to save results. 

 

As for screenshots offer, thank you very much, but pass - I don't care too much about it and don't have time to manually check stuff comparing to the images - and I even doubt there is anything wrong going on, I'm just used to leagues being as transparent as possible league files.