Wheres all the meta posts guys?

[Frank 5,209]

Quoting @Nykonax in the conference finals after game 5. Quebec I mean Vancouver continues to exploit the 40 passing 99 scoring meta where you volume shoot teams to death. The best part is you don't even need active members or members that put any effort. It's a great way to build a strong base for the league and get members who actually offer something of substance to stay. But honestly it's not Nykonax fault or Vancouver since there are no rules to stop this sort of team building or player building and Simon T isn't going to change the sim engine any time soon. The only answer lies with the higher ups but the answer isn't an easy one since the damage is already done and trying to fix it is a bit of a tight rope walk. I would say this version of the VHL is a bit more boring then when players had 99s across the board, since at least that was a bit random sim luck, but this feels more exploitive. 

 

Now Moscow just lost back to back finals to Vancouver and I can't pretend that Moscow didn't try some sort of meta line up this season. But with Moreau having 95 passing it feels like a gut punch since my player could easily be the reason that Moscow hasn't found success. I do understand that this vhl.com article might come across as salty. But in the mid Season 50s Quebec lost back to back finals to Helsinki and that had a totally different feeling since there was no outlier that was being exploited. Maybe @jRuutu @solasand so on can give me their two cents. 

 

Solution? Do we stop players from having such a large gap from passing to scoring? That seems like a good start just to curb the current state of things @Beketov. Or do we not allow players to go over 95 scoring if their passing is below 80. I have no idea, but I do know that this current version of things isn't it and I'm losing interest in sim results, despite winning an award this season. 

[Nykonax 1,564]

2 minutes ago, Frank said:

Solution? Do we stop players from having such a large gap from passing to scoring? That seems like a good start just to curb the current state of things @Beketov

So maybe BoG leaks here but idrc since it's tests I proposed lmao.

 

Ran tests with a max 15 gap and Vancouver still won the league in s80, although not as heavily. Like 70-100 less GD. Thing is s80 vancouver with 84pa 99sc wouldn't exist with the cap rules. Restricting gap helps to make things a bit more competitive, but it also comes with other problems that need to be looked at like the cap issues. Can't really just quick-fix it with a gap restriction, takes time to actually iron out problems with it. I also just want to say that Moscow this season, last season, and Chicago last season, were all close to coinflip series imo with Vancouver, so it can definitely be competed with.

[Beketov 9,025]

10 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

I also just want to say that Moscow this season, last season, and Chicago last season, were all close to coinflip series imo with Vancouver

Even your series with Calgary was really.

 

Vancouver has had a healthy dose of sim luck mixed in with their meta. That’s not to say the strategy isn’t [annoyingly] strong because it is but it doesn’t survive on its own, you do have to get a certain mixture of luck with it. Strong goalie play and it doesn’t work for example since all it adds is shots, it doesn’t guarantee better shots.

 

But yes, testing is promising but that doesn’t mean it’s a done deal. We aren’t going to re-roll the entire league to fix a problem with a solution that might not be any better just to be forced to do it all again in 2 seasons, we gotta get it right the first time. So yeah, that may be annoying in the interim, I hated losing to it as much as anyone. However unless you wanna put the league on pause while we work on it (ha, that would go well) we ultimately need more time to develop and test fixes.

[v.2 1,406]

Hopefully with more meta players jumping to VHL teams these results become more blended in until there's a solid fix in place.

[Jubis 1,348]

[Jubis 1,348]

2 hours ago, Frank said:

I have no idea, but I do know that this current version of things isn't it and I'm losing interest in sim results, despite winning an award this season. 

This 

[oilmandan 688]

Stop giving tpe away like it’s a participation trophy. Up costs for attributes over 85, 90 and 95. Or do as other leagues do, use positional archetypes with capped attributes in some categories. It’s a good start. 

[Jubis 1,348]

2 hours ago, Frank said:

I have no idea, but I do know that this current version of things isn't it and I'm losing interest in sim results, despite winning an award this season. 

This 

[jRuutu 2,464]

Yea no rush to get things done. Welfare team run by a welfare GM is keeping the league on a leash. Why is Nykonax allowed to be in the BOG? The message above suggest they are in the BOG, OR in contact with the BOG to help fix this thing? Nyko is clearly influencing the research negatively. Look at the comment about 84/99 test with 70-100 less scored goals. Your team has maybe 3 players NOW that can make a solid 84/99 build. The same is true with a lot of other teams, of course. Still, maybe post some better results. For example, what happens to your team if you drop scoring to 80-85 for all the welfare players in the team.  (If one of the solutions is to make scoring harder to upgrade, those welfare users would not get it as high it is now). And please, do use this seasons teams/players.

 

Three BOG members listed on the site use the 40 passing build. One BOG member listed on the site doesn't even have a player in the league right now - are they there to discuss anything? Looks and sounds like there is more meta positive people working on this case than those who are ''heavily'' against it.  Or are we to just take your word for it? ''We are all trying to fix it, but meanwhile we are also going to use the same exploit''.

 

I think the league should put the names clearly out there who is working on this and how they are doing it.

 

Based on the comments in this thread alone, I don't think we will see anything happen anytime soon. Beketov is going to take most of the shit for this while the BOG sits behind the closed doors with thumbs up their asses. Maybe Beketov once in a while pops in there to see if someone has some ideas. Perhaps Nyko PM's Beketov.

 

Here is what I think working around this case sounds like:

 

Nyko is whispering to Beketovs ear. ''Yea I did some tests, we only scored 100 less goals in those tests, I also added A LOT of tpe to every player.  We still won the league by the way. I don't think its worth the change''.  Beketov nods in agreement. ''Yea I don't think we can rush into things, you guys won the league still. How long does it take to reach 84 in passing and 99 scoring for welfare player, three seasons, right? That is nothing. I don't think we can rush into things''.  Nyko closes his eyes and nods aggressively. ''Yea absolutely, we can't rush to things. These things take time. I'm just a welfare GM, but I can do tests sims just fine. I got time and I don't have time. We can't rush into things''

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by jRuutu

[BOOM 8,745]

[Beketov 9,025]

51 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Yea no rush to get things done. Welfare team run by a welfare GM is keeping the league on a leash. Why is Nykonax allowed to be in the BOG? The message above suggest they are in the BOG, OR in contact with the BOG to help fix this thing? Nyko is clearly influencing the research negatively. Look at the comment about 84/99 test with 70-100 less scored goals. Your team has maybe 3 players NOW that can make a solid 84/99 build. The same is true with a lot of other teams, of course. Still, maybe post some better results. For example, what happens to your team if you drop scoring to 80-85 for all the welfare players in the team.  (If one of the solutions is to make scoring harder to upgrade, those welfare users would not get it as high it is now). And please, do use this seasons teams/players.

 

Three BOG members listed on the site use the 40 passing build. One BOG member listed on the site doesn't even have a player in the league right now - are they there to discuss anything? Looks and sounds like there is more meta positive people working on this case than those who are ''heavily'' against it.  Or are we to just take your word for it? ''We are all trying to fix it, but meanwhile we are also going to use the same exploit''.

 

I think the league should put the names clearly out there who is working on this and how they are doing it.

 

Based on the comments in this thread alone, I don't think we will see anything happen anytime soon. Beketov is going to take most of the shit for this while the BOG sits behind the closed doors with thumbs up their asses. Maybe Beketov once in a while pops in there to see if someone has some ideas. Perhaps Nyko PM's Beketov.

 

Here is what I think working around this case sounds like:

 

Nyko is whispering to Beketovs ear. ''Yea I did some tests, we only scored 100 less goals in those tests, I also added A LOT of tpe to every player.  We still won the league by the way. I don't think its worth the change''.  Beketov nods in agreement. ''Yea I don't think we can rush into things, you guys won the league still. How long does it take to reach 84 in passing and 99 scoring for welfare player, three seasons, right? That is nothing. I don't think we can rush into things''.  Nyko closes his eyes and nods aggressively. ''Yea absolutely, we can't rush to things. These things take time. I'm just a welfare GM, but I can do tests sims just fine. I got time and I don't have time. We can't rush into things''

 

You need to seriously chill on the conspiracy bullshit when you have no idea what’s actually happening. Basically all of this is wrong but just a few points of contention really quick:

 

1. Nyko built the test ratings, he didn’t run the test (I did) and the entire BOG can see the results, not just him.

 

2. He actually built way more variables to test, I accidentally screwed up the rating files so we wound up with only the same one multiple times. In any case “meta positive” or not is completely BS. The BOG’s job is to fix problems and everyone in there is trying to fix this, regardless of how that personally impacts them. Yes that includes @Nykonax as much as anyone else so I would appreciate if you don’t act like he’s trying to keep it because it’s his team.

 

3. The tests were run with S80 not S81 by my choice, why? Because S81 was still in progress and I would have had to sim to the end of it to be able to start the off season and save a valid control group + variables. Considering I had a player in those playoffs this did not seem a fair thing for me to be able to see. Everyone whines about rigging enough so how about not considering this one an L when it just made the most sense? We’re fucking with so much anyway that the season itself matters little.

 

4. We literally can’t rush this. Well, we can, if you wanna have to do a full re-roll of every single player of the league multiple times while we try and sort all the variables. Or we could actually fix the god damn problem and do it once. Complex problems can’t be fixed in 2 months, especially while the rest of league functions don’t take a hit. It is being worked on by the ENTIRE BOG, not some select few, and we are trying to fix it but this fucking useless attitude that the BOG wants everyone else to suffer needs to fucking die, I’m sick of it. Meme this all to hell, call me an asshole, I don’t care. I’ve had enough of the league shitting on the people doing nothing but trying to make the league a better place because, shockingly, we DON’T want to see the league we enjoy get worse.

[jRuutu 2,464]

2 hours ago, Beketov said:

You need to seriously chill on the conspiracy bullshit when you have no idea what’s actually happening. Basically all of this is wrong but just a few points of contention really quick:

 

1. Nyko built the test ratings, he didn’t run the test (I did) and the entire BOG can see the results, not just him.

 

2. He actually built way more variables to test, I accidentally screwed up the rating files so we wound up with only the same one multiple times. In any case “meta positive” or not is completely BS. The BOG’s job is to fix problems and everyone in there is trying to fix this, regardless of how that personally impacts them. Yes that includes @Nykonax as much as anyone else so I would appreciate if you don’t act like he’s trying to keep it because it’s his team.

 

3. The tests were run with S80 not S81 by my choice, why? Because S81 was still in progress and I would have had to sim to the end of it to be able to start the off season and save a valid control group + variables. Considering I had a player in those playoffs this did not seem a fair thing for me to be able to see. Everyone whines about rigging enough so how about not considering this one an L when it just made the most sense? We’re fucking with so much anyway that the season itself matters little.

 

4. We literally can’t rush this. Well, we can, if you wanna have to do a full re-roll of every single player of the league multiple times while we try and sort all the variables. Or we could actually fix the god damn problem and do it once. Complex problems can’t be fixed in 2 months, especially while the rest of league functions don’t take a hit. It is being worked on by the ENTIRE BOG, not some select few, and we are trying to fix it but this fucking useless attitude that the BOG wants everyone else to suffer needs to fucking die, I’m sick of it. Meme this all to hell, call me an asshole, I don’t care. I’ve had enough of the league shitting on the people doing nothing but trying to make the league a better place because, shockingly, we DON’T want to see the league we enjoy get worse.

You or someone else could make some kind of sticky post where updates of this situation is posted.That could help someone like me to get a better understanding of what is happening.

 

1 and 2. Why would you let Nyko build the ratings? Why is a user who put you into this mess working side by side with you to solve this issue? That point combined with the fact that so many BOG members using meta build themselves suggests that overal feeling behind the scenes is not overly negative towards the meta.

 

3. That makes sense. Hopefully s81 is used in the testing as well.

 

4.  Are you not worried you will be fixing this type of thing forever? A user like Nyko is allowed to stay as a GM. A user who is right there next to you testing and building test files. If and when you find the solution, you don't think Nyko or someone will try something else next? Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of users like Nyko instead? Why is ''fair, friendly, safe, etc,'' league only about the forum part? It's completely fine to ruin everyones fun in the actual sim. It's not exactly rocket science to point out if a GM is clearly trying exploit something. Or at least it's not when we talk about 40PA/99SC builds. Fire those GMs. Fire the GM's who clearly build their rosters with multiple players like that. Call it ''spirit of the game'' - rule. If a GM tries to get round the rule by having 50 PA/99 SC players instead, same result, you are fired. 

 

I don't understand why it makes more sense to work on this for months and months instead of being tough on GM's and users like Nyko. The league doesn't have any trouble in showing the door for someone who uses bad words. ''Too bad, you used a bad word, see ya in three weeks. Do it again. See ya in a month. Again? That is a perma ban''. When we move to the sim you let a user like Nyko shit on the league for two full seasons, every single sim his team mocks the league. Nothing happens. Instead of publicly shaming that type of behavior. You welcome it. You defend it.

 

When I see numerous BOG members building a meta player, when I see a user like Nyko working on this case so closely with you, when I see you defending Nyko's best intentions despite he clearly has made the league worse, I don't see how you can expect anything else than constant shitting towards BOG.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by jRuutu

[Beketov 9,025]

14 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

You or someone else could make some kind of sticky post where updates of this situation is posted.That could help someone like me to get a better understanding of what is happening.

 

1 and 2. Why would you let Nyko build the ratings? Why is a user who put you into this mess working side by side with you to solve this issue? That point combined with the fact that so many BOG members using meta build themselves suggests that overal feeling behind the scenes is not overly negative towards the meta.

 

3. That makes sense. Hopefully s81 is used in the testing as well.

 

4.  Are you not worried you will be fixing this type of thing forever? A user like Nyko is allowed to stay as a GM. A user who is right there next to you testing and building test files. If and when you find the solution, you don't think Nyko or someone will try something else next? Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of users like Nyko instead? Why is ''fair, friendly, safe, etc,'' league only about the forum part? It's completely fine to ruin everyones fun in the actual sim. It's not exactly rocket science to point out if a GM is clearly trying exploit something. Or at least it's not when we talk about 40PA/99SC builds. Fire those GMs. Fire the GM's who clearly build their rosters with multiple players like that. Call it ''spirit of the game'' - rule. If a GM tries to get round the rule by having 50 PA/99 SC players instead, same result, you are fired. 

 

I don't understand why it makes more sense to work on this for months and months instead of being tough on GM's and users like Nyko. The league doesn't have any trouble in showing the door for someone who uses bad words. ''Too bad, you used a bad word, see ya in three weeks. Do it again. See ya in a month. Again? That is a perma ban''. When we move to the sim you let a user like Nyko shit on the league for two full seasons, every single sim his team mocks the league. Nothing happens. Instead of publicly shaming that type of behavior. You welcome it. You defend it.

 

When I see numerous BOG members building a meta player, when I see a user like Nyko working on this case so closely with you, when I see you defending Nyko's best intentions despite he clearly has made the league worse, I don't see how you can expect anything else than constant shitting towards BOG.

 

We’ve never been in a business of dictating how GM’s build their teams, that’s not how the league works. Even if we wanted to do that you’re asking for what, us to fire someone for breaking a rule that didn’t exist? That doesn’t make any amount of sense. Similarly you seem to want to what, punish BOG members for using a build that clearly works? What about everyone else doing it? I guess everyone gets punished for years of people telling them to build like this or they’ll suck?
 

It’s not their fault that something works, that’s why we are trying to make it not work. Throwing punishments at it and saying “don’t do that” don’t make anything better, it just throws around a pile of punishments and makes us police builds and teams unnecessarily when instead we could actually find a way to FIX the problem instead of just punishing for it unnecessarily.

 

As for your baseless accusations on “why would Nyko build the ratings”, two points: first everyone has a life and is busy, he offered. It’s not like he can tweak them to favour not changing anything because A. He wants it fixed just like anyone else and B. We can all see the ratings that were used so it’s not like we wouldn’t know if he didn’t do the test as he said he did. We’ve had others make ratings changes as well to test, it not just Nyko.

 

I think you’re getting overly upset about Nyko being involved but he’s in the BOG like the rest of us and has an interest in fixing the issues like the rest of us, regardless of whether or not it has won him cups. Believe whatever the fuck you want but that doesn’t make it true. Every single BOG member has thus far agreed that this is an issue, we’re just trying to work out the best way to solve it right now because there’s varying opinions on how intense a fix is needed. We’re getting close but whether you like it or not we can’t just slap a band aid on and say “great, we did it, good job everyone.”

[jRuutu 2,464]

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

We’ve never been in a business of dictating how GM’s build their teams, that’s not how the league works. Even if we wanted to do that you’re asking for what, us to fire someone for breaking a rule that didn’t exist? That doesn’t make any amount of sense. Similarly you seem to want to what, punish BOG members for using a build that clearly works? What about everyone else doing it? I guess everyone gets punished for years of people telling them to build like this or they’ll suck?
 

It’s not their fault that something works, that’s why we are trying to make it not work. Throwing punishments at it and saying “don’t do that” don’t make anything better, it just throws around a pile of punishments and makes us police builds and teams unnecessarily when instead we could actually find a way to FIX the problem instead of just punishing for it unnecessarily.

 

As for your baseless accusations on “why would Nyko build the ratings”, two points: first everyone has a life and is busy, he offered. It’s not like he can tweak them to favour not changing anything because A. He wants it fixed just like anyone else and B. We can all see the ratings that were used so it’s not like we wouldn’t know if he didn’t do the test as he said he did. We’ve had others make ratings changes as well to test, it not just Nyko.

 

I think you’re getting overly upset about Nyko being involved but he’s in the BOG like the rest of us and has an interest in fixing the issues like the rest of us, regardless of whether or not it has won him cups. Believe whatever the fuck you want but that doesn’t make it true. Every single BOG member has thus far agreed that this is an issue, we’re just trying to work out the best way to solve it right now because there’s varying opinions on how intense a fix is needed. We’re getting close but whether you like it or not we can’t just slap a band aid on and say “great, we did it, good job everyone.”

How about you start your policing from GM's who build 40PA/99SC rosters and teams, and go from there, if needed? I'm sure the BOG is able to set up some kind of ''case by case'' system that allows details to be analyzed accurately. Main focus should be on the GM's who try to actively exploit the game/cheat. For example, building their roster with 40PA/99SC players. 

 

Maybe BOG members should consider leading by example. If meta is a ''problem'', maybe it's not a huge ask for the wise BOG to avoid building the same ''problem'' build? Fair request to simple peasant like me.

 

You are right, it's not their fault. At the same time it would be nice if BOG would do a bit more than clap together behind the closed doors when different test results are posted. For example, build something else than the same problem build. As a person outside, all I can hear is clapping, I see very little.

 

Nice of Nyko to volunteer. Nyko can't do point tasks, but they find time to do test sims.  Nice that Nyko also wants to find a solution. Nyko built their own team purely to exploit the sim engine, but now they want to fix it.  Nice that other testers are also doing work.

 

Nothing says we are worried and there is a problem than building the exact same thing you are trying to fix.

 

[Beketov 9,025]

10 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

How about you start your policing from GM's who build 40PA/99SC rosters and teams, and go from there, if needed? I'm sure the BOG is able to set up some kind of ''case by case'' system that allows details to be analyzed accurately. Main focus should be on the GM's who try to actively exploit the game/cheat. For example, building their roster with 40PA/99SC players. 

 

Maybe BOG members should consider leading by example. If meta is a ''problem'', maybe it's not a huge ask for the wise BOG to avoid building the same ''problem'' build? Fair request to simple peasant like me.

 

You are right, it's not their fault. At the same time it would be nice if BOG would do a bit more than clap together behind the closed doors when different test results are posted. For example, build something else than the same problem build. As a person outside, all I can hear is clapping, I see very little.

 

Nice of Nyko to volunteer. Nyko can't do point tasks, but they find time to do test sims.  Nice that Nyko also wants to find a solution. Nyko built their own team purely to exploit the sim engine, but now they want to fix it.  Nice that other testers are also doing work.

 

Nothing says we are worried and there is a problem than building the exact same thing you are trying to fix.

 

“Congrats, you’re in the BOG. But since we’re trying to fix this thing right now we need you to retire and change your whole build. Yeah, I know 90% of the league has been pushing that for years because it works best but you gotta deal with it.”

 

Members and players are two different things, same as members and GM’s are two different things. You need to learn to separate these things and accept that the BOG is not trying to make the league worse. We see the same problems you see but like I said, punishment is not the answer here.

 

Let’s say hypothetically that we say “you can only have X number of meta players per team”. Sounds fine on paper right? Well except that, as I said, people have been pushing the meta for years so now you have a bunch of players with no where to play because no one can take them. It doesn’t fix the problem.

 

I’m done arguing about this. Its fucking being worked on. Believe me or don’t, I don’t care, but we’re working on it. We can’t overhaul the league attributes overnight. Rushing into changes is how we end up with horrible changes that make everything worse.

[Nykonax 1,564]

jrutuu cant be real right

[jRuutu 2,464]

4 minutes ago, Beketov said:

“Congrats, you’re in the BOG. But since we’re trying to fix this thing right now we need you to retire and change your whole build. Yeah, I know 90% of the league has been pushing that for years because it works best but you gotta deal with it.”

 

Members and players are two different things, same as members and GM’s are two different things. You need to learn to separate these things and accept that the BOG is not trying to make the league worse. We see the same problems you see but like I said, punishment is not the answer here.

 

Let’s say hypothetically that we say “you can only have X number of meta players per team”. Sounds fine on paper right? Well except that, as I said, people have been pushing the meta for years so now you have a bunch of players with no where to play because no one can take them. It doesn’t fix the problem.

 

I’m done arguing about this. Its fucking being worked on. Believe me or don’t, I don’t care, but we’re working on it. We can’t overhaul the league attributes overnight. Rushing into changes is how we end up with horrible changes that make everything worse.

Just an idea for the future. Maybe you could ask BOG to avoid doing X if you are going to work on solving X. Assuming something ''similar'' comes up down the road.

 

I have hard time believing that many teams all of a sudden start their season with six 40/99 players. That takes some effort. They could few seasons from now if everybody goes for the same build, that is true, but if you put a tough rule in place that forces users and teams to do something else than go for the 40/99 - maybe users would do that? Maybe the situation would not be that bad? Maybe being forced to free agency could fix some of it automatically?

 

''uuuuu, I can't build a exploit player, uuu I can't use 40 in passing and 99 in scoring, now I'm a free agent''. Sounds a lot like: ''uuu, I can't be a douchebag, uuu I can't use bad words in the forum''. One is actively punished, the other is not. Who cares if cheaters are free agents? Build something else.

 

Where did the sudden urge to make changes come up? If the thing has been pushed for years, what pushed BOG and league over the edge? Why are you doing test sims right now?

[jRuutu 2,464]

9 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

jrutuu cant be real right

Go claim your welfare and go post some test sims for the BOG.

[Nykonax 1,564]

1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

Go claim your welfare and go post some test sims for the BOG.

thanks for the reminder

[Beketov 9,025]

4 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Where did the sudden urge to make changes come up? If the thing has been pushed for years, what pushed BOG and league over the edge? Why are you doing test sims right now?

Players have long been told to ignore passing, just maybe not to this degree and generally not so congested into similar teams. There’s also the matter of even going back one career the advice was usually “keep scoring and passing at least 10 apart” which was much more balanced but that suggested gap has gotten greater and greater over the last several seasons and as more players end up with it more teams end up with it and thus the problem.

 

People can blame Vancouver all they want but they didn’t start this, they have just gotten the sim luck to abuse it easier than others historically. The problem stems from so many people for so long deciding that shots > all and building with exclusively that in mind because results are the only thing people care about and it gets results.

 

There may not be as many “full meta” players as I imply but a large portion of the league is following some portion of it because it’s gone on far too long that the suggestion has been to build only that way even if other builds can work just fine. Hell look at @Frank who started all this topic. 95 passing and got 100 assists which is insane. @RomanesEuntDomus was right under him, not a meta build. @Acydburn was under him, not a meta build.

 

Passing builds can work but when everyone says “hey, build this way it’s best” we get into trouble and that’s the point we are at. So yeah, #FuckMeta, but also we as a community embraced it, suggested it, and built it so all we can do now is fix it. I wanna be clear though, this isn’t a Vancouver or @Nykonax problem just because they benefited the most.

[hedgehog337 3,483]

so I was right all along eh 

 

sths is trash, call Simon and tell him to make a relevant engine for once

 

9 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Hell look at @Frank who started all this topic. 95 passing and got 100 assists which is insane. @RomanesEuntDomus was right under him, not a meta build. @Acydburn was under him, not a meta build.

 

 

All of them are defs. Afaik defs are benefiting the most from passing. Centers are kinda in the middle and wingers not so much

[Beketov 9,025]

2 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

sths is trash, call Simon and tell him to make a relevant engine for once

We know it’s a problem, we also know any other engine is equally problematic and causes other issues. I will never say Simon is perfect but he’s perfect for us and that’s what matters.

 

4 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

All of them are defs. Afaik defs are benefiting the most from passing. Centers are kinda in the middle and wingers not so much

Sure but the argument is still framed as passing does nothing when that’s definitely not true. Hell go check S68, Thompson was a goal machine and Sullivan Jr. was an assist machine because that’s the way we were built and we were used well together. Meta works because people have too long decided that it’s the best way to min/max TPE and have suggested it to everyone. John Locke was probably the first to have real success doing it and he was good but never insane because he was alone. It’s damaging because it’s been abused, we’ve always known that was when it would be troublesome but figured we had safeguards in place to stop the constant and easy re-rolls that led to it being abused in the SHL. What we didn’t foresee was everyone telling anyone that would listen that it was the path to a HoF so re-rolls became unnecessary for it.

[hedgehog337 3,483]

36 minutes ago, Beketov said:

John Locke was probably the first to have real success doing it and he was good but never insane because he was alone.

 

His first two seasons with Krīgars may argue with this statement

 

37 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Thompson was a goal machine and Sullivan Jr. was an assist machine because that’s the way we were built and we were used well together

 

I have no beliefs in this one. Thompson was so good any more or less skilled center would pull this off with him. Even a scoring center. Would Sully do anything with even a slightly lesser skilled wingman? Huge doubt. That Malmo for me was just a one man show there.

[Beketov 9,025]

11 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

I have no beliefs in this one. Thompson was so good any more or less skilled center would pull this off with him. Even a scoring center. Would Sully do anything with even a slightly lesser skilled wingman? Huge doubt. That Malmo for me was just a one man show there.

Even so, Thompson had 80 passing at that point so let’s not pretend that meta is the only build that works.

 

This is ultimately the root of the issue and how we got here: everyone deciding “this is the build, follow it.” Enough of those and the meta teams become possible. Otherwise they are outliers that may perform a tad better than they should but they are manageable, always were.

 

All I’m saying is pointing the blame at Vancouver or whatever isn’t really warranted. Did they abuse a system for their gain? Definitely. Could that have been abused without having so many players already built that way to be grabbed up? I would argue no.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]