2015-2016 NHL Discussion

[Kendrick 4,741]

I think people need to stop comparing the two, and hopefully through time they will. The reason they compare them is obviously because of draft position and marketability. However, they play different styles, in different markets and have totally different offensive weapons to work with. I'm not a fan of either guy per say, but I just sit back and watch them do whatever they can without hyping them. I like to see a larger body of work (3 years) before I can actually put a staple on a guy.

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

I think people need to stop comparing the two, and hopefully through time they will. The reason they compare them is obviously because of draft position and marketability. However, they play different styles, in different markets and have totally different offensive weapons to work with. I'm not a fan of either guy per say, but I just sit back and watch them do whatever they can without hyping them. I like to see a larger body of work (3 years) before I can actually put a staple on a guy.

its been about 5 years since Taylor vs Tyler. what do you think about that

[Advantage 2,891]

In fact, I have been doing a little study on this.

 

Top-5 forwards in the year after being drafted (kept it just forwards since McDavid and Eichel both are up front):

 

2000 - Dany Heatley - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2001)

2000 - Marian Gaborik - 71 GP, 18 Goals, 18 Assists, 36 Points, 0.51 PPG

2000 - Raffi Torres - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2003)

2001 - Ilya Kovalchuk - 65 GP, 29 Goals, 22 Assists, 51 Points, 0.78 PPG

2001 - Jason Spezza - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Alexander Svitov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Stephen Weiss - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Stanislav Chistov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2002 - Rick Nash - 74 GP, 17 Goals, 22 Assists, 39 Points, 0.53 PPG

2003 - Eric Staal - 81 GP, 11 Goals, 20 Assists, 31 Points, 0.38 PPG

2003 - Nathan Horton - 55 GP, 14 Goals, 8 Assists, 22 Points, 0.40 PPG

2003 - Nikolai Zherdev - 57 GP, 13 Goals, 21 Assists, 34 Points, 0.60 PPG

2003 - Thomas Vanek - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Alexander Ovechkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Evgeni Malkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2006)

2004 - Andrew Ladd - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Blake Wheeler - Played in USHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2005 - Sidney Crosby - 81 GP, 39 Goals, 63 Assists, 102 Points, 1.26 PPG

2005 - Bobby Ryan - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2005 - Benoit Pouliot - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2006 - Jordan Staal - 81 GP, 29 Goals, 13 Assists, 42 Points, 0.52 PPG

2006 - Jonathan Toews - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2007)

2006 - Nicklas Backstrom - Played in Sweden (became full-time NHL player in 2007)

2006 - Phil Kessel - 70 GP, 11 Goals, 18 Assists, 29 Points, 0.41 PPG

2007 - Patrick Kane - 82 GP, 21 Goals, 51 Assists, 72 Points, 0.88 PPG

2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2009)

2007 - Kyle Turris - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2008 - Steven Stamkos - 79 GP, 23 Goals, 23 Assists, 46 Points, 0.58 PPG

2009 - John Tavares - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 30 Assists, 54 Points, 0.66 PPG

2009 - Matt Duchene - 81 GP, 24 Goals, 31 Assists, 55 Points, 0.68 PPG

2009 - Evander Kane - 66 GP, 14 Goals, 12 Assists, 26 Points, 0.39 PPG

2009 - Brayden Schenn - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2010 - Taylor Hall - 65 GP, 22 Goals, 20 Assists, 42 Points, 0.65 PPG

2010 - Tyler Seguin - 74 GP, 11 Goals, 11 Assists, 22 Points, 0.30 PPG

2010 - Ryan Johansen - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2010 - Nino Niederreiter - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2011 - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 62 GP, 18 Goals, 34 Assists, 52 Points, 0.84 PPG

2011 - Gabriel Landeskog - 82 GP, 22 Goals, 30 Assists, 52 Points, 0.63 PPG

2011 - Jonathan Huberdeau - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2012)

2011 - Ryan Strome - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2013)

2012 - Nail Yakupov - 48 GP, 17 Goals, 14 Assists, 31 Points, 0.65 PPG

2012 - Alex Galchenyuk - 48 Goals, 9 Goals, 18 Assists, 27 Points, 0.56 PPG

2013 - Nathan Mackinnon - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 39 Assists, 63 Points, 0.77 PPG

2013 - Aleksander Barkov - 54 GP, 8 Goals, 16 Assists, 24 Points, 0.44 PPG

2013 - Jonathan Drouin - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2014)

2013 - Elias Lindholm - 58 GP, 9 Goals, 12 Assists, 21 Points, 0.36 PPG

2014 - Sam Reinhart - Played in WHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

2014 - Leon Draisaitl - 37 GP, 2 Goals, 7 Assists, 9 Points, 0.24 PPG

2014 - Sam Bennett - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

2014 - Michael Dal Colle - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

 

*Full-time NHL player constitutes anyone who played at least thirty games in a single season/playoffs by my definition

 

---

 

So with that, of the fifty forwards drafted in the top-5 since 2000...twenty-four of them played in the NHL the following year (IE: the same situation as McDavid and Eichel).

 

These are how their PPG totals stack up:

 

1. Sidney Crosby - 1.26 PPG

2. Patrick Kane - 0.88 PPG

3. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 0.84 PPG

4. Ilya Kovalchuk - 0.78 PPG

5. Nathan Mackinnon - 0.77 PPG

6. Matt Duchene - 0.68 PPG

7. John Tavares - 0.66 PPG

8. Taylor Hall - 0.65 PPG

9. Nail Yakupov - 0.65 PPG

10. Gabriel Landeskog - 0.63 PPG

11. Nikolai Zherdev - 0.60 PPG

12. Steven Stamkos - 0.58 PPG

13. Alex Galchenyuk - 0.56 PPG

14. Rick Nash - 0.53 PPG

15. Jordan Staal - 0.52 PPG

16. Marian Gaborik - 0.51 PPG

17. Aleksander Barkov - 0.44 PPG

18. Phil Kessel - 0.41 PPG

19. Nathan Horton - 0.40 PPG

20. Evander Kane - 0.39 PPG

21. Eric Staal - 0.38 PPG

22. Elias Lindholm - 0.36 PPG

23. Tyler Seguin - 0.30 PPG

24. Leon Draisaitl - 0.24 PPG

 

Only one player selected in the top five of an entry draft, has hit the PPG plateau the very next season.  Yet many predict McDavid and Eichel to join Crosby as the only players to ever do so.  Meanwhile, names like Tavares, Stamkos, Seguin, Kessel, Kane, Kovalchuk...names that are easily among the better offensive players of the last ten years...all fell short of that mark.

 

It's absolutely ridiculous that people have labelled these two as guaranteed franchise players in the territory of Crosby and Ovechkin.  It's even more ridiculous that people expect them to be at that level this year.

 

Oh and by the way...how many of those above twenty-four players won the Rookie of the Year Trophy...3..Patrick Kane..Gabriel Landeskog..Nathan Mackinnon.

 

Yet, if McDavid or Eichel finished with totals that matched those three..they would be considered disappointments in their very first year.

 

[Kendrick 4,741]

its been about 5 years since Taylor vs Tyler. what do you think about that

Tyler in regards to production. 

[Devise 4,475]

In fact, I have been doing a little study on this.

 

Top-5 forwards in the year after being drafted (kept it just forwards since McDavid and Eichel both are up front):

 

2000 - Dany Heatley - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2001)

2000 - Marian Gaborik - 71 GP, 18 Goals, 18 Assists, 36 Points, 0.51 PPG

2000 - Raffi Torres - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2003)

2001 - Ilya Kovalchuk - 65 GP, 29 Goals, 22 Assists, 51 Points, 0.78 PPG

2001 - Jason Spezza - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Alexander Svitov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Stephen Weiss - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2001 - Stanislav Chistov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002)

2002 - Rick Nash - 74 GP, 17 Goals, 22 Assists, 39 Points, 0.53 PPG

2003 - Eric Staal - 81 GP, 11 Goals, 20 Assists, 31 Points, 0.38 PPG

2003 - Nathan Horton - 55 GP, 14 Goals, 8 Assists, 22 Points, 0.40 PPG

2003 - Nikolai Zherdev - 57 GP, 13 Goals, 21 Assists, 34 Points, 0.60 PPG

2003 - Thomas Vanek - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Alexander Ovechkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Evgeni Malkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2006)

2004 - Andrew Ladd - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2005)

2004 - Blake Wheeler - Played in USHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2005 - Sidney Crosby - 81 GP, 39 Goals, 63 Assists, 102 Points, 1.26 PPG

2005 - Bobby Ryan - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2005 - Benoit Pouliot - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2006 - Jordan Staal - 81 GP, 29 Goals, 13 Assists, 42 Points, 0.52 PPG

2006 - Jonathan Toews - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2007)

2006 - Nicklas Backstrom - Played in Sweden (became full-time NHL player in 2007)

2006 - Phil Kessel - 70 GP, 11 Goals, 18 Assists, 29 Points, 0.41 PPG

2007 - Patrick Kane - 82 GP, 21 Goals, 51 Assists, 72 Points, 0.88 PPG

2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2009)

2007 - Kyle Turris - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2008)

2008 - Steven Stamkos - 79 GP, 23 Goals, 23 Assists, 46 Points, 0.58 PPG

2009 - John Tavares - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 30 Assists, 54 Points, 0.66 PPG

2009 - Matt Duchene - 81 GP, 24 Goals, 31 Assists, 55 Points, 0.68 PPG

2009 - Evander Kane - 66 GP, 14 Goals, 12 Assists, 26 Points, 0.39 PPG

2009 - Brayden Schenn - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2010 - Taylor Hall - 65 GP, 22 Goals, 20 Assists, 42 Points, 0.65 PPG

2010 - Tyler Seguin - 74 GP, 11 Goals, 11 Assists, 22 Points, 0.30 PPG

2010 - Ryan Johansen - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2010 - Nino Niederreiter - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011)

2011 - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 62 GP, 18 Goals, 34 Assists, 52 Points, 0.84 PPG

2011 - Gabriel Landeskog - 82 GP, 22 Goals, 30 Assists, 52 Points, 0.63 PPG

2011 - Jonathan Huberdeau - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2012)

2011 - Ryan Strome - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2013)

2012 - Nail Yakupov - 48 GP, 17 Goals, 14 Assists, 31 Points, 0.65 PPG

2012 - Alex Galchenyuk - 48 Goals, 9 Goals, 18 Assists, 27 Points, 0.56 PPG

2013 - Nathan Mackinnon - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 39 Assists, 63 Points, 0.77 PPG

2013 - Aleksander Barkov - 54 GP, 8 Goals, 16 Assists, 24 Points, 0.44 PPG

2013 - Jonathan Drouin - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2014)

2013 - Elias Lindholm - 58 GP, 9 Goals, 12 Assists, 21 Points, 0.36 PPG

2014 - Sam Reinhart - Played in WHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

2014 - Leon Draisaitl - 37 GP, 2 Goals, 7 Assists, 9 Points, 0.24 PPG

2014 - Sam Bennett - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

2014 - Michael Dal Colle - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut)

 

*Full-time NHL player constitutes anyone who played at least thirty games in a single season/playoffs by my definition

 

---

 

So with that, of the fifty forwards drafted in the top-5 since 2000...twenty-four of them played in the NHL the following year (IE: the same situation as McDavid and Eichel).

 

These are how their PPG totals stack up:

 

1. Sidney Crosby - 1.26 PPG

2. Patrick Kane - 0.88 PPG

3. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 0.84 PPG

4. Ilya Kovalchuk - 0.78 PPG

5. Nathan Mackinnon - 0.77 PPG

6. Matt Duchene - 0.68 PPG

7. John Tavares - 0.66 PPG

8. Taylor Hall - 0.65 PPG

9. Nail Yakupov - 0.65 PPG

10. Gabriel Landeskog - 0.63 PPG

11. Nikolai Zherdev - 0.60 PPG

12. Steven Stamkos - 0.58 PPG

13. Alex Galchenyuk - 0.56 PPG

14. Rick Nash - 0.53 PPG

15. Jordan Staal - 0.52 PPG

16. Marian Gaborik - 0.51 PPG

17. Aleksander Barkov - 0.44 PPG

18. Phil Kessel - 0.41 PPG

19. Nathan Horton - 0.40 PPG

20. Evander Kane - 0.39 PPG

21. Eric Staal - 0.38 PPG

22. Elias Lindholm - 0.36 PPG

23. Tyler Seguin - 0.30 PPG

24. Leon Draisaitl - 0.24 PPG

 

Only one player selected in the top five of an entry draft, has hit the PPG plateau the very next season.  Yet many predict McDavid and Eichel to join Crosby as the only players to ever do so.  Meanwhile, names like Tavares, Stamkos, Seguin, Kessel, Kane, Kovalchuk...names that are easily among the better offensive players of the last ten years...all fell short of that mark.

 

It's absolutely ridiculous that people have labelled these two as guaranteed franchise players in the territory of Crosby and Ovechkin.  It's even more ridiculous that people expect them to be at that level this year.

 

Oh and by the way...how many of those above twenty-four players won the Rookie of the Year Trophy...3..Patrick Kane..Gabriel Landeskog..Nathan Mackinnon.

 

Yet, if McDavid or Eichel finished with totals that matched those three..they would be considered disappointments in their very first year.

 

The one thing this giant post and all this analysis has me thinking, just how actually UNDER RATED Crosby and Ovechkin are. Like seriously. Look at them against all the comparable players in their own eras and their over performance is insanely consistent. I think we may of been caught in a funk by seeing these two play as much as they have but make no mistake about those two are probably up there in the top 10 or 20 of all time hockey greats. 

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

thats very impressive Advantage. 

 

also, I miss Leon Draisaitl ripped shit up in the WHL last year. made some very sick passes. My fav was when he took a pass from Rourke Chartier and he literally had the puck on his stick for 1 second before make a cross crease pass to Nick Merkley right on the tape for the win

[Advantage 2,891]

Not sure I have them in the top-20 players ever yet..but I think by the time both of their careers are over..they probably will be in that territory.  I also do the All-Time Draft on HFBoards regularly so I would say I'm a little more biased towards some of the older guys there since I've studied them so much.

[Knight 1,289]

I'm glad Advantage and Devise talked some sense in this thread.

[BluObieZ 1,125]

Eichel proved today that he is better then the wonderkid. That goal today was just crazy. McDavid is good, don't get me wrong but Eichel will be the true superstar. McDavid as long as he is in Edmonton will not live up to the hype. That city kills players. They are so used to sucking and for them to say hey ok lets not suck now, it will take time to get rid of that mentality. I makes me laugh that they even thought for a second to give McDavid the C this year. They are going with no captain because they know next year he will be captain. Which puts even more pressure on him.

[Kesler 1,514]

Its so early to tell. Two games in?

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

Eichel > McDavid. Eichel has 2 goals. Debate is officially over.

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

Eichel > McDavid. Eichel has 2 goals. Debate is officially over.

Ovechkin > Crosby. Ovechkin has 476 goals. Crosby has 302 debate over

[Kesler 1,514]

John Scott has more healthy scratches. Does he win?

[Advantage 2,891]

Eichel proved today that he is better then the wonderkid. That goal today was just crazy. McDavid is good, don't get me wrong but Eichel will be the true superstar. McDavid as long as he is in Edmonton will not live up to the hype. That city kills players. They are so used to sucking and for them to say hey ok lets not suck now, it will take time to get rid of that mentality. I makes me laugh that they even thought for a second to give McDavid the C this year. They are going with no captain because they know next year he will be captain. Which puts even more pressure on him.

Nikita Filatov was better than Steven Stamkos in his first twenty games of the season.  How did that turn out?

 

It's ridiculous to judge how good someone will be off three games in the NHL.  

 

Based off your logic:

- RNH will be better than Tavares

- Elias Lindholm will be better than Seguin

 

I can go on and on too.  You can't judge this early one way or another.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

Yeah, I don't know why anyone is claiming anything about Eichel and McDavid right now. It's been like 3 games. Not even 3 for Connor.

[Kendrick 4,741]

Alex Daigle best all time

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points.  

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points.  

Miller definitely shut the door against the Ducks. He's the sole reason Canucks won that game.

 

Ducks only have 1 goal so far in 2 games and it was by Vatanen. Although I'm sure that's no problem and guys like Getzlaf, Perry, etc will start scoring soon enough.

[Sandro 251]

Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points.  

 

Three games. He started hot last season as well. Wait and see how things go now that he's not going to get any rest for a while with Markstrom's injury.

[boubabi 4,725]

4-0 youppi

[Kendrick 4,741]

Three games. He started hot last season as well. Wait and see how things go now that he's not going to get any rest for a while with Markstrom's injury.

Guy starts hot last year, splits some time with Lack, then gets injured and Sandro calls for his head. 

[Sandro 251]

Guy starts hot last year, splits some time with Lack, then gets injured and Sandro calls for his head. 

 

You just like to try and start shit with me, don't you? Miller "started hot" as in the first 10 games. He cooled off pretty damn quickly from there on out. Lack barely played until after Christmas, when Miller complained about being fatigued.

[Kendrick 4,741]

You just like to try and start shit with me, don't you? Miller "started hot" as in the first 10 games. He cooled off pretty damn quickly from there on out. Lack barely played until after Christmas, when Miller complained about being fatigued.

No I don't, you just like to complain about every damn facet of every players game. Miller was doing pretty good last year until splitting time and then getting injured. You were even rough on him when he came back from injury.

[Sandro 251]

No I don't, you just like to complain about every damn facet of every players game. Miller was doing pretty good last year until splitting time and then getting injured. You were even rough on him when he came back from injury.

 

Miller did fine for the first 10 games, then fatigue started to set in and the team still refused to play Lack more. He had a .911 SV% and 2.53 GAA. Those aren't good numbers. They're below average, plain and simple.

[Kendrick 4,741]

Just like how Markstrom has shown promise in the NHL right?