Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I think people need to stop comparing the two, and hopefully through time they will. The reason they compare them is obviously because of draft position and marketability. However, they play different styles, in different markets and have totally different offensive weapons to work with. I'm not a fan of either guy per say, but I just sit back and watch them do whatever they can without hyping them. I like to see a larger body of work (3 years) before I can actually put a staple on a guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastOlympian07 2,388 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I think people need to stop comparing the two, and hopefully through time they will. The reason they compare them is obviously because of draft position and marketability. However, they play different styles, in different markets and have totally different offensive weapons to work with. I'm not a fan of either guy per say, but I just sit back and watch them do whatever they can without hyping them. I like to see a larger body of work (3 years) before I can actually put a staple on a guy. its been about 5 years since Taylor vs Tyler. what do you think about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,769 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 In fact, I have been doing a little study on this. Top-5 forwards in the year after being drafted (kept it just forwards since McDavid and Eichel both are up front): 2000 - Dany Heatley - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2001) 2000 - Marian Gaborik - 71 GP, 18 Goals, 18 Assists, 36 Points, 0.51 PPG 2000 - Raffi Torres - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2003) 2001 - Ilya Kovalchuk - 65 GP, 29 Goals, 22 Assists, 51 Points, 0.78 PPG 2001 - Jason Spezza - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Alexander Svitov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Stephen Weiss - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Stanislav Chistov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2002 - Rick Nash - 74 GP, 17 Goals, 22 Assists, 39 Points, 0.53 PPG 2003 - Eric Staal - 81 GP, 11 Goals, 20 Assists, 31 Points, 0.38 PPG 2003 - Nathan Horton - 55 GP, 14 Goals, 8 Assists, 22 Points, 0.40 PPG 2003 - Nikolai Zherdev - 57 GP, 13 Goals, 21 Assists, 34 Points, 0.60 PPG 2003 - Thomas Vanek - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Alexander Ovechkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Evgeni Malkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2006) 2004 - Andrew Ladd - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Blake Wheeler - Played in USHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2005 - Sidney Crosby - 81 GP, 39 Goals, 63 Assists, 102 Points, 1.26 PPG 2005 - Bobby Ryan - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2005 - Benoit Pouliot - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2006 - Jordan Staal - 81 GP, 29 Goals, 13 Assists, 42 Points, 0.52 PPG 2006 - Jonathan Toews - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2007) 2006 - Nicklas Backstrom - Played in Sweden (became full-time NHL player in 2007) 2006 - Phil Kessel - 70 GP, 11 Goals, 18 Assists, 29 Points, 0.41 PPG 2007 - Patrick Kane - 82 GP, 21 Goals, 51 Assists, 72 Points, 0.88 PPG 2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2009) 2007 - Kyle Turris - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2008 - Steven Stamkos - 79 GP, 23 Goals, 23 Assists, 46 Points, 0.58 PPG 2009 - John Tavares - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 30 Assists, 54 Points, 0.66 PPG 2009 - Matt Duchene - 81 GP, 24 Goals, 31 Assists, 55 Points, 0.68 PPG 2009 - Evander Kane - 66 GP, 14 Goals, 12 Assists, 26 Points, 0.39 PPG 2009 - Brayden Schenn - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2010 - Taylor Hall - 65 GP, 22 Goals, 20 Assists, 42 Points, 0.65 PPG 2010 - Tyler Seguin - 74 GP, 11 Goals, 11 Assists, 22 Points, 0.30 PPG 2010 - Ryan Johansen - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2010 - Nino Niederreiter - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2011 - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 62 GP, 18 Goals, 34 Assists, 52 Points, 0.84 PPG 2011 - Gabriel Landeskog - 82 GP, 22 Goals, 30 Assists, 52 Points, 0.63 PPG 2011 - Jonathan Huberdeau - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2012) 2011 - Ryan Strome - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2013) 2012 - Nail Yakupov - 48 GP, 17 Goals, 14 Assists, 31 Points, 0.65 PPG 2012 - Alex Galchenyuk - 48 Goals, 9 Goals, 18 Assists, 27 Points, 0.56 PPG 2013 - Nathan Mackinnon - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 39 Assists, 63 Points, 0.77 PPG 2013 - Aleksander Barkov - 54 GP, 8 Goals, 16 Assists, 24 Points, 0.44 PPG 2013 - Jonathan Drouin - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2014) 2013 - Elias Lindholm - 58 GP, 9 Goals, 12 Assists, 21 Points, 0.36 PPG 2014 - Sam Reinhart - Played in WHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) 2014 - Leon Draisaitl - 37 GP, 2 Goals, 7 Assists, 9 Points, 0.24 PPG 2014 - Sam Bennett - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) 2014 - Michael Dal Colle - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) *Full-time NHL player constitutes anyone who played at least thirty games in a single season/playoffs by my definition --- So with that, of the fifty forwards drafted in the top-5 since 2000...twenty-four of them played in the NHL the following year (IE: the same situation as McDavid and Eichel). These are how their PPG totals stack up: 1. Sidney Crosby - 1.26 PPG 2. Patrick Kane - 0.88 PPG 3. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 0.84 PPG 4. Ilya Kovalchuk - 0.78 PPG 5. Nathan Mackinnon - 0.77 PPG 6. Matt Duchene - 0.68 PPG 7. John Tavares - 0.66 PPG 8. Taylor Hall - 0.65 PPG 9. Nail Yakupov - 0.65 PPG 10. Gabriel Landeskog - 0.63 PPG 11. Nikolai Zherdev - 0.60 PPG 12. Steven Stamkos - 0.58 PPG 13. Alex Galchenyuk - 0.56 PPG 14. Rick Nash - 0.53 PPG 15. Jordan Staal - 0.52 PPG 16. Marian Gaborik - 0.51 PPG 17. Aleksander Barkov - 0.44 PPG 18. Phil Kessel - 0.41 PPG 19. Nathan Horton - 0.40 PPG 20. Evander Kane - 0.39 PPG 21. Eric Staal - 0.38 PPG 22. Elias Lindholm - 0.36 PPG 23. Tyler Seguin - 0.30 PPG 24. Leon Draisaitl - 0.24 PPG Only one player selected in the top five of an entry draft, has hit the PPG plateau the very next season. Yet many predict McDavid and Eichel to join Crosby as the only players to ever do so. Meanwhile, names like Tavares, Stamkos, Seguin, Kessel, Kane, Kovalchuk...names that are easily among the better offensive players of the last ten years...all fell short of that mark. It's absolutely ridiculous that people have labelled these two as guaranteed franchise players in the territory of Crosby and Ovechkin. It's even more ridiculous that people expect them to be at that level this year. Oh and by the way...how many of those above twenty-four players won the Rookie of the Year Trophy...3..Patrick Kane..Gabriel Landeskog..Nathan Mackinnon. Yet, if McDavid or Eichel finished with totals that matched those three..they would be considered disappointments in their very first year. DollarAndADream 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 its been about 5 years since Taylor vs Tyler. what do you think about that Tyler in regards to production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devise 4,475 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 In fact, I have been doing a little study on this. Top-5 forwards in the year after being drafted (kept it just forwards since McDavid and Eichel both are up front): 2000 - Dany Heatley - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2001) 2000 - Marian Gaborik - 71 GP, 18 Goals, 18 Assists, 36 Points, 0.51 PPG 2000 - Raffi Torres - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2003) 2001 - Ilya Kovalchuk - 65 GP, 29 Goals, 22 Assists, 51 Points, 0.78 PPG 2001 - Jason Spezza - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Alexander Svitov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Stephen Weiss - Played in the OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2001 - Stanislav Chistov - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2002) 2002 - Rick Nash - 74 GP, 17 Goals, 22 Assists, 39 Points, 0.53 PPG 2003 - Eric Staal - 81 GP, 11 Goals, 20 Assists, 31 Points, 0.38 PPG 2003 - Nathan Horton - 55 GP, 14 Goals, 8 Assists, 22 Points, 0.40 PPG 2003 - Nikolai Zherdev - 57 GP, 13 Goals, 21 Assists, 34 Points, 0.60 PPG 2003 - Thomas Vanek - Played in the NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Alexander Ovechkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Evgeni Malkin - Played in Russia (became full-time NHL player in 2006) 2004 - Andrew Ladd - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2005) 2004 - Blake Wheeler - Played in USHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2005 - Sidney Crosby - 81 GP, 39 Goals, 63 Assists, 102 Points, 1.26 PPG 2005 - Bobby Ryan - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2005 - Benoit Pouliot - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2006 - Jordan Staal - 81 GP, 29 Goals, 13 Assists, 42 Points, 0.52 PPG 2006 - Jonathan Toews - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2007) 2006 - Nicklas Backstrom - Played in Sweden (became full-time NHL player in 2007) 2006 - Phil Kessel - 70 GP, 11 Goals, 18 Assists, 29 Points, 0.41 PPG 2007 - Patrick Kane - 82 GP, 21 Goals, 51 Assists, 72 Points, 0.88 PPG 2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2009) 2007 - Kyle Turris - Played in NCAA (became full-time NHL player in 2008) 2008 - Steven Stamkos - 79 GP, 23 Goals, 23 Assists, 46 Points, 0.58 PPG 2009 - John Tavares - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 30 Assists, 54 Points, 0.66 PPG 2009 - Matt Duchene - 81 GP, 24 Goals, 31 Assists, 55 Points, 0.68 PPG 2009 - Evander Kane - 66 GP, 14 Goals, 12 Assists, 26 Points, 0.39 PPG 2009 - Brayden Schenn - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2010 - Taylor Hall - 65 GP, 22 Goals, 20 Assists, 42 Points, 0.65 PPG 2010 - Tyler Seguin - 74 GP, 11 Goals, 11 Assists, 22 Points, 0.30 PPG 2010 - Ryan Johansen - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2010 - Nino Niederreiter - Played in WHL (became full-time NHL player in 2011) 2011 - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 62 GP, 18 Goals, 34 Assists, 52 Points, 0.84 PPG 2011 - Gabriel Landeskog - 82 GP, 22 Goals, 30 Assists, 52 Points, 0.63 PPG 2011 - Jonathan Huberdeau - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2012) 2011 - Ryan Strome - Played in OHL (became full-time NHL player in 2013) 2012 - Nail Yakupov - 48 GP, 17 Goals, 14 Assists, 31 Points, 0.65 PPG 2012 - Alex Galchenyuk - 48 Goals, 9 Goals, 18 Assists, 27 Points, 0.56 PPG 2013 - Nathan Mackinnon - 82 GP, 24 Goals, 39 Assists, 63 Points, 0.77 PPG 2013 - Aleksander Barkov - 54 GP, 8 Goals, 16 Assists, 24 Points, 0.44 PPG 2013 - Jonathan Drouin - Played in QMJHL (became full-time NHL player in 2014) 2013 - Elias Lindholm - 58 GP, 9 Goals, 12 Assists, 21 Points, 0.36 PPG 2014 - Sam Reinhart - Played in WHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) 2014 - Leon Draisaitl - 37 GP, 2 Goals, 7 Assists, 9 Points, 0.24 PPG 2014 - Sam Bennett - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) 2014 - Michael Dal Colle - Played in OHL (yet to make full-time NHL debut) *Full-time NHL player constitutes anyone who played at least thirty games in a single season/playoffs by my definition --- So with that, of the fifty forwards drafted in the top-5 since 2000...twenty-four of them played in the NHL the following year (IE: the same situation as McDavid and Eichel). These are how their PPG totals stack up: 1. Sidney Crosby - 1.26 PPG 2. Patrick Kane - 0.88 PPG 3. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 0.84 PPG 4. Ilya Kovalchuk - 0.78 PPG 5. Nathan Mackinnon - 0.77 PPG 6. Matt Duchene - 0.68 PPG 7. John Tavares - 0.66 PPG 8. Taylor Hall - 0.65 PPG 9. Nail Yakupov - 0.65 PPG 10. Gabriel Landeskog - 0.63 PPG 11. Nikolai Zherdev - 0.60 PPG 12. Steven Stamkos - 0.58 PPG 13. Alex Galchenyuk - 0.56 PPG 14. Rick Nash - 0.53 PPG 15. Jordan Staal - 0.52 PPG 16. Marian Gaborik - 0.51 PPG 17. Aleksander Barkov - 0.44 PPG 18. Phil Kessel - 0.41 PPG 19. Nathan Horton - 0.40 PPG 20. Evander Kane - 0.39 PPG 21. Eric Staal - 0.38 PPG 22. Elias Lindholm - 0.36 PPG 23. Tyler Seguin - 0.30 PPG 24. Leon Draisaitl - 0.24 PPG Only one player selected in the top five of an entry draft, has hit the PPG plateau the very next season. Yet many predict McDavid and Eichel to join Crosby as the only players to ever do so. Meanwhile, names like Tavares, Stamkos, Seguin, Kessel, Kane, Kovalchuk...names that are easily among the better offensive players of the last ten years...all fell short of that mark. It's absolutely ridiculous that people have labelled these two as guaranteed franchise players in the territory of Crosby and Ovechkin. It's even more ridiculous that people expect them to be at that level this year. Oh and by the way...how many of those above twenty-four players won the Rookie of the Year Trophy...3..Patrick Kane..Gabriel Landeskog..Nathan Mackinnon. Yet, if McDavid or Eichel finished with totals that matched those three..they would be considered disappointments in their very first year. The one thing this giant post and all this analysis has me thinking, just how actually UNDER RATED Crosby and Ovechkin are. Like seriously. Look at them against all the comparable players in their own eras and their over performance is insanely consistent. I think we may of been caught in a funk by seeing these two play as much as they have but make no mistake about those two are probably up there in the top 10 or 20 of all time hockey greats. Knight and DollarAndADream 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastOlympian07 2,388 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 thats very impressive Advantage. also, I miss Leon Draisaitl ripped shit up in the WHL last year. made some very sick passes. My fav was when he took a pass from Rourke Chartier and he literally had the puck on his stick for 1 second before make a cross crease pass to Nick Merkley right on the tape for the win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,769 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Not sure I have them in the top-20 players ever yet..but I think by the time both of their careers are over..they probably will be in that territory. I also do the All-Time Draft on HFBoards regularly so I would say I'm a little more biased towards some of the older guys there since I've studied them so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight 1,219 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm glad Advantage and Devise talked some sense in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluObieZ 1,125 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Eichel proved today that he is better then the wonderkid. That goal today was just crazy. McDavid is good, don't get me wrong but Eichel will be the true superstar. McDavid as long as he is in Edmonton will not live up to the hype. That city kills players. They are so used to sucking and for them to say hey ok lets not suck now, it will take time to get rid of that mentality. I makes me laugh that they even thought for a second to give McDavid the C this year. They are going with no captain because they know next year he will be captain. Which puts even more pressure on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesler 1,514 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Its so early to tell. Two games in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarAndADream 3,356 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Eichel > McDavid. Eichel has 2 goals. Debate is officially over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastOlympian07 2,388 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Eichel > McDavid. Eichel has 2 goals. Debate is officially over. Ovechkin > Crosby. Ovechkin has 476 goals. Crosby has 302 debate over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesler 1,514 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 John Scott has more healthy scratches. Does he win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,769 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Eichel proved today that he is better then the wonderkid. That goal today was just crazy. McDavid is good, don't get me wrong but Eichel will be the true superstar. McDavid as long as he is in Edmonton will not live up to the hype. That city kills players. They are so used to sucking and for them to say hey ok lets not suck now, it will take time to get rid of that mentality. I makes me laugh that they even thought for a second to give McDavid the C this year. They are going with no captain because they know next year he will be captain. Which puts even more pressure on him. Nikita Filatov was better than Steven Stamkos in his first twenty games of the season. How did that turn out? It's ridiculous to judge how good someone will be off three games in the NHL. Based off your logic: - RNH will be better than Tavares - Elias Lindholm will be better than Seguin I can go on and on too. You can't judge this early one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarAndADream 3,356 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yeah, I don't know why anyone is claiming anything about Eichel and McDavid right now. It's been like 3 games. Not even 3 for Connor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Alex Daigle best all time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastOlympian07 2,388 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarAndADream 3,356 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points. Miller definitely shut the door against the Ducks. He's the sole reason Canucks won that game. Ducks only have 1 goal so far in 2 games and it was by Vatanen. Although I'm sure that's no problem and guys like Getzlaf, Perry, etc will start scoring soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro 251 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Ryan Miller man. I must say i was sceptical about him going into the season. 3 games in hes been pretty damn good. What a good game. 2-0-1. 5 points. Three games. He started hot last season as well. Wait and see how things go now that he's not going to get any rest for a while with Markstrom's injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boubabi 4,725 Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 4-0 youppi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Three games. He started hot last season as well. Wait and see how things go now that he's not going to get any rest for a while with Markstrom's injury. Guy starts hot last year, splits some time with Lack, then gets injured and Sandro calls for his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro 251 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Guy starts hot last year, splits some time with Lack, then gets injured and Sandro calls for his head. You just like to try and start shit with me, don't you? Miller "started hot" as in the first 10 games. He cooled off pretty damn quickly from there on out. Lack barely played until after Christmas, when Miller complained about being fatigued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 You just like to try and start shit with me, don't you? Miller "started hot" as in the first 10 games. He cooled off pretty damn quickly from there on out. Lack barely played until after Christmas, when Miller complained about being fatigued. No I don't, you just like to complain about every damn facet of every players game. Miller was doing pretty good last year until splitting time and then getting injured. You were even rough on him when he came back from injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro 251 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 No I don't, you just like to complain about every damn facet of every players game. Miller was doing pretty good last year until splitting time and then getting injured. You were even rough on him when he came back from injury. Miller did fine for the first 10 games, then fatigue started to set in and the team still refused to play Lack more. He had a .911 SV% and 2.53 GAA. Those aren't good numbers. They're below average, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick 4,724 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Just like how Markstrom has shown promise in the NHL right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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