No Fuhr: Mod Mentality

[youloser1337 1,106]

2 minutes ago, youloser1337 said:

 

Glad it goes both ways

Just to be clear. since you edited your comment, I don't care about you as a person. That's what I implied with your original message.

 

Quote

Doesn’t mean I’ll caring about you as a person. 

Kthnxbye.

 

[Tate 450]

1 minute ago, youloser1337 said:

Just to be clear. since you edited your comment, I don't care about you as a person. That's what I implied with your original message.

 

Kthnxbye.

 

 

No problem, still doesn’t change how I feel. Thank you for clarifying though. 

[BOOM 8,749]

As a general rule, try to avoid searching your own username on league servers. Maybe it's just me though. 

[Tate 450]

 

[Banackock 8,049]

[Tate 450]

The silence from up top and the lack of accountability from the head of the Mod Team can rightly summarize that this leadership group is going to ignore my plea for change.  It is much easier to do than rock the boat, and risk having to engage in a, "hard," conversation with a longtime friend. 

 

Some people are going to take a run at me for saying this but I am genuinely disappointed in the individuals who were involved in my suspension that haven't bothered to at least message me in private.  An apology goes a long way and not recognizing that you played a role in wrongfully suspending me for betraying consent is wrong. 

 

I know who you are and that you've read this thread, and while you may not like me as a person it doesn't mean that I wasn't harmed by what you did.  I've proven why that was the case above and expressed my feelings over the matter.  That's not an easy thing to do. 

 

For a group that is supposed to be concerned for the well being of their members I would expect better from you. 

 

To the others who have privately messaged me, I thank you for your support, it truly means a lot.  It's actually a big reason why I went through all this trouble to challenge the ideals of this Mod team, because I believe in the people we have here -- and the good that is within them.

 

Big love to all of you (even you @youloser1337), Tate is now signing off from this thread **

 

 

 

[Spartan 4,403]

4 hours ago, Tate said:

The silence from up top and the lack of accountability from the head of the Mod Team can rightly summarize that this leadership group is going to ignore my plea for change.  It is much easier to do than rock the boat, and risk having to engage in a, "hard," conversation with a longtime friend. 

Against my better judgement I'm going to briefly reply to you in the thread, so apologies if this brings you back when you planned to drop this or incites something again. I'm not the "top" you refer to here since I have no involvement in punishment or moderation, so this isn't an official stance, just my own thoughts after seeing everything play out over the last week or so.

 

I listened to your podcast in its entirety (until the questions portion at the end when the moderation topic seemed to be over), but I will admit I am not a podcast guy. I don't listen to them unless I'm trying to fall asleep, they just don't grab my attention. But I tried my best to focus on what you said while I worked, and I did catch the general points and sound bites that Fong addressed in his response to you, so I feel like I've got the gist of your points.

 

That being said, what specifically do you want to see change other than to fire Fong and hire you as the head mod? How would you even be different? Why should we overthrow a tenured moderator for someone who has been openly bitter about being punished by that moderator and his team? I mentioned in Moscow's LR after I listened to the podcast that I felt this was a very philosophical podcast, but no specific suggestions or constructive feedback that correlated to the VHL. You talked about inclusivity, but you didn't talk about how you would handle members that make comments that exclude others. You mentioned discipline vs punishment as a moderation tool, but you didn't say how you would change the current system to handle problematic behavior.

 

I just don't see what your plea for change even is, other than as I stated, firing Fong and hiring you. Half this thread was animosity over how your own conduct was handled and how you were impacted. Wasn't that something better suited to address with moderators at the time of the punishment, or even in private at this time? I argue with Fong over plenty of stuff morally/ethically/philosophically but I like to think he's understood my perspectives when it comes to moderation since I try to present them as feedback instead of complaints. One is helpful, one is not.

 

From a sim league/VHL perspective, I never see change happening over complaining and extreme, reactive "solutions." Identify and explain the issue, detail ways to improve and always expect compromise. Good luck  

[Tate 450]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Against my better judgement I'm going to briefly reply to you in the thread, so apologies if this brings you back when you planned to drop this or incites something again. I'm not the "top" you refer to here since I have no involvement in punishment or moderation, so this isn't an official stance, just my own thoughts after seeing everything play out over the last week or so.

 

 

No worries, thank you for your response. I definitely did not plan to respond again but since you asked some important questions I will answer them. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

That being said, what specifically do you want to see change other than to fire Fong and hire you as the head mod? How would you even be different? Why should we overthrow a tenured moderator for someone who has been openly bitter about being punished by that moderator and his team? I mentioned in Moscow's LR after I listened to the podcast that I felt this was a very philosophical podcast, but no specific suggestions or constructive feedback that correlated to the VHL. You talked about inclusivity, but you didn't talk about how you would handle members that make comments that exclude others. You mentioned discipline vs punishment as a moderation tool, but you didn't say how you would change the current system to handle problematic behavior.

 

 

Okay, this is an excellent question.  I just want to clarify the order on how things happened that led to everything I ended up doing- 

 

I did the Podcast to discuss my philosophical differences between how I view the problematic Mod team and how they have been approaching discipline in this league.  The mod team is very punishment heavy, feeling as though their bans/suspensions will help prevent future incidents and also believing them to be fair.  Believing that they have a right to be proactive.

 

I personally think they're bat shit crazy, and do not believe anyone here has the right to be proactive when it involves risking the well being of people's mental health.  Instead, I do believe that our Mod team must be reactive and assess situations case by case as they arise.  In both JRuutu and my suspensions they got aspects of the details involving why we were suspended wrong, and what they did was not only unfair but reckless.  In my case alone it resulted in a significant loss in my reputation and my mental health.  

 

I wanted Baozi to hear my mindset, hoping it might sway their opinion, and maybe get them and the group to see the error in their over the top, idealistic ways.  However, that was not the case, and because Baozi was so defiant that is why I spent so much time going on about my own suspension, because I wanted them to see the pain and damage they had caused.  I wanted to show them that they weren't always right, and the fact that by acting proactive they had actually caused more damage than good. 

 

So, just to clarify -

 

1. The podcast was an outreach to Baozi and also to flag this issue to the Blue Team.

2. Once Baozi responded in the way that they did -- I bit back with my own suspension (which I had in my back pocket because I knew I had been wronged).  I am also not alone in that belief, there are many league members still here to this day that were present when I was suspended and know what it was for.  Which again, goes to my point about how over the top their reactions and PUNISHMENTS are.  All I needed was a warning.

 

All I had needed was to know that there was a problem... they did not give me that.   

 

Differences in how I would operate -- 

 

Most cases that involve breaking the COC would involve a conversation, and mentorship of that member.  I would want our moderators to build connections with members and help them understand why what they said/did broke the COC and work with them to avoid doing it again.  I would have them show examples or try to help said members understand how to approach those situations better.  I would only use suspensions as a last resort, when a member had knowingly gone against the previous conversations from the Mods and specifically tried to target/hurt people.  Kachur is an excellent example of a lifetime ban.  JRuutu and I should have been talked to and that's it. 

 

One of the points JRuutu brought up about himself is that he is Finnish and English is not his first language.  We know already based on some of the responses in this thread that the majority of people have found that my podcast was well spoken, but that I come across as a bit of a dick when I am writing out these combative messages.  This is the negative aspect of text that all Mods must consider before acting with discipline.  Not punishment. 

 

In my opinion, the way that this Mod team operates promotes an Exclusive environment where only certain people get to stick around, whereas I would look to work tirelessly with members before being so willing to give up on them.  I will do whatever I can to promote what I feel is an actual inclusive environment, where people don't have to live under the threat of fear.  A place where questions can be asked, and people can be understood -- even if they are initially misunderstood.  A place where the first reaction is open arms.  

 

We need to understand that any of the members who choose to stay here are special, that we share a bond and a love of hockey or games.  That we are the same.

 

I would also look to work with each Mod team member to better help them understand how to talk to people, and discern intent.  I would also work with them further so that they understand the risks of labeling people with certain reputations and or improve how to avoid harming them while at the same time educating them about whatever it is they might be confused about. 

 

I want to break down the walls we constantly have up, open up the communication, and get this place back to where it was before the iron fist of this Mod team was enacted.  When this aggressive Mod team first came into pass, it was for a good reason, but I feel they've gone away from it.  They've lost sight of their light.

 

I also believe that everyone here is on the same page when it comes to what kind of place we want around here., and how we go about reinforcing that should be done with pleasure, not pain.

 

Think about the fact that @Ricer13 of all members complained about the methods of the Mod team.  This is an aggressive group that has a chip on their shoulders, and it's easy to see why when they have a leader like Baozi. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

I just don't see what your plea for change even is, other than as I stated, firing Fong and hiring you. Half this thread was animosity over how your own conduct was handled and how you were impacted. Wasn't that something better suited to address with moderators at the time of the punishment, or even in private at this time? I argue with Fong over plenty of stuff morally/ethically/philosophically but I like to think he's understood my perspectives when it comes to moderation since I try to present them as feedback instead of complaints. One is helpful, one is not.

 

 

One of the only ways to show proof of the Mod teams mistake(s) was to put myself out there for everyone to see.  Because I am so familiar with the subject matter (my suspension) I already knew that there would be no way for the Mod team to disprove me, because the fact of the matter was that I was never contacted prior to my incident.  If Baozi had not wrongly thrown back my suspension in my face I wouldn't have come back at them so hard about it.  Sometimes you don't get the attention you want with sugar, you need to throw some salt in the wound. 

 

My suspension is something that happened to me in my life that really bothers me.  You have to understand the person I pride myself to be.  I go out of my way to treat people with respect, and there are a lot of people here who will back me up on that.  I have friends here for a good reason, and even the people that don't care for me too much will admit that I am a very respectful member.

 

I knew the only way I would be able to draw the attention of outsiders is if I spoke the truth about what happened to me, and if I spoke from my heart. 

 

Also, I initially intended to dispute my suspension through Fishy when it happened but once I got kicked from Discord and the forum, I had no way of contacting anyone.  I ended up putting in a request to be Josh's and Bek's friend on Discord so I could dispute it, and by the time Josh accepted my friend request I was so upset over what happened I told him to close my account and retire my player. 

 

Once a cooler head prevailed I realized how much I loved being a member here and recreated my account.  I felt like if I stayed away I would be letting this Mod team win, and while I did try to remain silent at first- I could no longer.

 

In fact, I wish I would have spoken up sooner. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

From a sim league/VHL perspective, I never see change happening over complaining and extreme, reactive "solutions." Identify and explain the issue, detail ways to improve and always expect compromise. Good luck  

 

 

There will never be the swift kind of change I'd like to see on this because of the current leadership structure.  This is why people complain about the O L D B O Y S club because we've got a very tight knit group here that is hard to crack, and fiercely loyal to one another.  But therein lies the hypocrisy, because this group preaches change and inclusivity when they have never been more Exclusive than now.  

 

One of the most notorious copy pasta's of the VHL is a quote from me criticizing Beketov.  That was three years ago and it was because the VHL has always struggled with retention, and with good reason.  Not much changes around here when it comes to the disconnect between the veteran leadership staff and the outsiders looking in.

 

But what I do hope is that people listen to me, read my responses, and stand up for what is right.  I intend to keep my podcast up and ongoing for as long as I can so hopefully they won't be able to fully forget and ignore me.

 

I won't allow silence to let them to win.   

 

Thank you!

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Tate

[Spartan 4,403]

16 minutes ago, Tate said:

The mod team is very punishment heavy, feeling as though their bans/suspensions will help prevent future incidents and also believing them to be fair.  Believing that they have a right to be proactive.

 

I personally think they're bat shit crazy, and do not believe anyone here has the right to be proactive when it involves the well being of people's mental health.  Instead, I do believe that our Mod team must be reactive and assess situations case by case as they arise.

Obviously Ruutu's situation was deemed excessive and his punishment subsequently reduced, but are suspensions/bans not reactive? No one is walking around suspending people before they've done anything, so there is no proactive action outside the CoC existing to tell people not to be assholes to each other. Ruutu was suspended after making a comment, and you were suspended after your comments that got escalated to moderators for action. Those situations are great examples of reactive punishments.

 

20 minutes ago, Tate said:

In both JRuutu and my suspensions they got aspects of the details involving why we were suspended wrong, and what they did was not only unfair but reckless.  In my case alone it resulted in a significant loss in my reputation and my mental health.  

In Ruutu's case, it was obvious that there was an error that affected the punishment given and it was rectified. I don't know if any communication with Ruutu occurred after the decision to reduce the punishment, but I'd hope there was. In your case, I don't think many people (and honestly, myself included) felt your punishment was unjust. Even now with the information that the EFL may or may not have spoken to you about similar behavior, I still don't think anything should have changed. In hindsight we can look back and see that Kachur/Horcrux played a role in escalating the situation beyond something that could have been resolved between the involved parties, but at the end of the day there was still a case brought to moderators that merited some form of discipline, which was a suspension. Personally, I think that was fair but I expect you'll disagree so we don't need to debate it.

 

25 minutes ago, Tate said:

Most cases that involve breaking the COC would involve a conversation, and mentorship of that member.  I would want our moderators to build connections with members and help them understand why what they said/did broke the COC and work with them to avoid doing it again.  I would have them show examples or try to help said members understand how to approach those situations better.  I would only use suspensions as a last resort, when a member had knowingly gone against the previous conversations from the Mods and specifically tried to target/hurt people.  Kachur is an excellent example of a lifetime ban.  JRuutu and I should have been talked to and that's it. 

I can see the merit of this, but mainly in theory and not practice. I'm not privvy to the details, but I'm fairly certain there are users who have racked up a multitude of warnings for actions that never resulted in suspension/bans. What happens when your mentorship or hand-holding doesn't go anywhere? It's the internet, I don't expect moderators to be parents or teachers, that's a bit ridiculous. If rules are broken, there is punishment. I'm fairly impatient so maybe it's good I'm not a moderator, but I certainly wouldn't be giving people 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th chances and hoping they change their behavior. Other people feel the impact of each of those infractions no?

 

31 minutes ago, Tate said:

I want to break down the walls we constantly have up, open up the communication, and get this place back to where it was before the iron fist of this Mod team was enacted.  When this aggressive Mod team first came into pass, it was for a good reason, but I feel they've gone away from it.  They've lost sight of their light.

Without revealing things that will get me yelled at, we've certainly criticized, discussed and argued various moderation actions internally. I've seen processes change and constructive feedback has been received and implemented. That's one of the nice things (that some of the mods certainly don't love) about being a commissioner, that I have the ability to push back on things in constructive and private ways, especially when concerns are brought to me privately. Going after their credentials (we're really comparing resumes for a sim league?), using aggressive imagery, painting them to be power-tripping sycophants, all just seems immature and also not worthy for someone who wants to become a moderator.

 

38 minutes ago, Tate said:

There will never be the swift kind of change I'd like to see on this because of the current leadership structure.  This is why people complain about the O L D B O Y S club because we've got a very tight knit group here that is hard to crack, and fiercely loyal to one another.  But therein lies the hypocrisy, because this group preaches change and inclusivity when they have never been more Exclusive than now.  

Respectfully, you've got to pay a bit more attention if you think that the current RGB group and the moderator team all think the same ways lol. Only difference is that we're able to respect differences in opinions and consider different perspectives. Again I'm trying my best not to be disclosing private discussions so I'm sorry if this is all very vague. But it'd be pretty impossible to be providing different opinions and perspectives internally if I got kicked off staff for leaking shit lol. Someone higher up than myself can add details or examples of what I'm referring to if they feel it's appropriate, but I'd hope that my word means something at the least and can provide some reassurance.

 

[Beketov 9,025]

20 minutes ago, Spartan said:

In Ruutu's case, it was obvious that there was an error that affected the punishment given and it was rectified.

Just to be clear this was more or less a “clerical error” type of situation. Proper records of past warnings were not kept and proper notification of appeal process was not made; that is why we reduced the punishment. It is not because we deemed the punishment itself unfair, simply that due process wasn’t correctly followed.

[Tate 450]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Obviously Ruutu's situation was deemed excessive and his punishment subsequently reduced, but are suspensions/bans not reactive? No one is walking around suspending people before they've done anything, so there is no proactive action outside the CoC existing to tell people not to be assholes to each other. Ruutu was suspended after making a comment, and you were suspended after your comments that got escalated to moderators for action. Those situations are great examples of reactive punishments.

 

The proactive aspect is in reference to Baozi's ideology on how they approach enacting discipline (severe punishments) and what not.  I was technically suspended for breaking consent, I actually only made ONE comment that was complained about.  I was the one who submitted an article to show my past behavior as well as anyone could have searched Discord to have seen the countless messages between us, OVER YEARS.

 

And if we want to post the comment I was dinged for we can, it's actually a PG safe comment for anyone curious, and you can still find it in discord.

 

The comment I made might be something you hear on a playground, among teenagers or kids.  Listen Spartan, you're a great person and all, but don't go drinking the Kool Aid (look it up if you don't know what that phrase means).  There is plenty of evidence to support what happened to me, which is why I must reply to you next comment. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

In Ruutu's case, it was obvious that there was an error that affected the punishment given and it was rectified. I don't know if any communication with Ruutu occurred after the decision to reduce the punishment, but I'd hope there was. In your case, I don't think many people (and honestly, myself included) felt your punishment was unjust. Even now with the information that the EFL may or may not have spoken to you about similar behavior, I still don't think anything should have changed. In hindsight we can look back and see that Kachur/Horcrux played a role in escalating the situation beyond something that could have been resolved between the involved parties, but at the end of the day there was still a case brought to moderators that merited some form of discipline, which was a suspension. Personally, I think that was fair but I expect you'll disagree so we don't need to debate it.

 

 

In no way did I merit discipline, absolutely not.  I deserved a warning, and the knowledge that what I was doing was wrong.  For more proof, go look at the countless messages before hand which support why I acted the way that I did.  I was completely blindsided when my suspension happened to me.  I literally had no idea that was any issue at all.  

 

There are also plenty of people who felt my punishment was unjust but for their sake I will not name them publicly, I certainly take issue with you making that statement.  You want to make a statement for how you feel? Fine.  But certainly not a blanket statement.  That is 100% not fair. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

I can see the merit of this, but mainly in theory and not practice. I'm not privvy to the details, but I'm fairly certain there are users who have racked up a multitude of warnings for actions that never resulted in suspension/bans. What happens when your mentorship or hand-holding doesn't go anywhere? It's the internet, I don't expect moderators to be parents or teachers, that's a bit ridiculous. If rules are broken, there is punishment. I'm fairly impatient so maybe it's good I'm not a moderator, but I certainly wouldn't be giving people 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th chances and hoping they change their behavior. Other people feel the impact of each of those infractions no?

 

 

So, not all mentorships work out, not all people stay.  The point is to try.  Like I mentioned before, moderators are by nature educators because they know the rules.  When you hire people, you hire for personality and character.  You can teach the rest. 

 

It's not about chances, it's about communication.  There does come a time where you determine if the person in question is knowingly trying to cause harm, and it is then that you enforce discipline like a suspension or banning. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Without revealing things that will get me yelled at, we've certainly criticized, discussed and argued various moderation actions internally. I've seen processes change and constructive feedback has been received and implemented. That's one of the nice things (that some of the mods certainly don't love) about being a commissioner, that I have the ability to push back on things in constructive and private ways, especially when concerns are brought to me privately. Going after their credentials (we're really comparing resumes for a sim league?), using aggressive imagery, painting them to be power-tripping sycophants, all just seems immature and also not worthy for someone who wants to become a moderator.

 

 

I am a writer by nature so forgive my dramatic descriptions but it is to get a point across.  Text is hard to get right, so when using it I am trying my best to make a point and I also have a certain way of doing it. That is just who I am.  Also, I have a right to feel pissed off with the response I got from Baozi, and I can choose how I want to go about expressing it.  At no point have I gone against the COC. 

 

But let me tell you, I didn't start this so I could call on myself to take over.  It was only after hearing from Baozi that I offered myself as a temporary solution to help guide the ship.  What I am saying overall is listen to the differences between how Baozi and I would lead.  Who would you prefer?

 

Based on some of your responses here I see how you align with Baozi's mindset when it comes to be a bit on the stricter, and that is perhaps why you're comfortable with the current mold.  But I also know the kind of heart and compassion you have because we've exchanged some really good conversation. 

 

Can you really say that what happened to me wasn’t unjust ?  After everything I have stated, shown.  After what the actual truth is?  If I knew for one second that the person I offended didn't want me to talk to them in the way that I did -- I WOULD NEVER, EVER HAVE DONE SO.  Learning the truth was like getting punched in the gut.  It makes me sick to think about it. 

 

I sure hope the same thing never happens to you, Spartan.  Because I did not deserve to be labeled in the way that I was or have my reputation affected negatively across multiple leagues.  I deserved the right to a conversation.  

 

I'm quite surprised you don't see that. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Respectfully, you've got to pay a bit more attention if you think that the current RGB group and the moderator team all think the same ways lol. Only difference is that we're able to respect differences in opinions and consider different perspectives. Again I'm trying my best not to be disclosing private discussions so I'm sorry if this is all very vague. But it'd be pretty impossible to be providing different opinions and perspectives internally if I got kicked off staff for leaking shit lol. Someone higher up than myself can add details or examples of what I'm referring to if they feel it's appropriate, but I'd hope that my word means something at the least and can provide some reassurance.

 

 

Of course I don't think everyone feels the same!!  I am trying to get members who may be staying silent to speak up.  Do I really believe that this team will ever hire me, let alone for the Head Mod job?

 

No.  Absolutely not. 

 

They don't trust me.  They've got a nice group of friends here that have made this place run for a looooooooong time.  Why should my feelings matter?  I am just another one to complain, bitch and moan.  Ignore me long enough  and eventually I'll just go away like the rest of them do, right?

Edited November 2, 2022 by Tate

[N0HBDY 1,119]

7 hours ago, Tate said:

Tate is now signing off from this thread

 

[Tate 450]

3 minutes ago, N0HBDY said:

 

Yo! I just can’t not respond to some of that. I’ve come this far, if people have questions I feel like it’s a cop out not to answer them.

[Baozi 1,658]

2 hours ago, Tate said:

In my case alone it resulted in a significant loss in my reputation and my mental health.  

 

Sorry I do want to point out something here based on the technicalities you seemingly are trying throw at me for and I just want to set the record straight. This was the announcement of your disciplinarian action. 

 

Conversely I also received a 2 week ban for words I said during my own infraction.

 

If you look also, another member for also a 2 week ban right before yours for a harassment complaint as well.

 

So its pretty consistent across multiple instances that first time offense harassment charges typically get the same disciplinary action so I'm not sure why you feel it wasn't established or was overly severe. We all pay for our mistakes in one way another, how you feel about what happened to your reputation or mental health however does not weigh into the judgement. There aren't indications here specifically targeting you or anything different than was announced for what myself and others that got hit with harassment complains got.

 

 

 

On 11/3/2021 at 12:27 PM, fishy said:

User @Tate has been suspended from the league forums and discord until November 17, 2021. A TPE ban will be in effect until November 22. This is a result of Violation of the VHL Code of Conduct and harassment/inappropriate behavior towards a community member.

 

This is a general reminder to everyone that the league takes harassment complaints incredibly seriously. Consent is incredibly important to us here to ensure that everyone feels safe and has fun. It is not only the staff’s duty but all members to ensure that each of us helps to grow and keep this community safe for one another.

[Tate 450]

4 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

Sorry I do want to point out something here based on the technicalities you seemingly are trying throw at me for and I just want to set the record straight. This was the announcement of your disciplinarian action. 

 

Conversely I also received a 2 week ban for words I said during my own infraction.

 

If you look also, another member for also a 2 week ban right before yours for a harassment complaint as well.

 

So its pretty consistent across multiple instances that first time offense harassment charges typically get the same disciplinary action so I'm not sure why you feel it wasn't established or was overly severe. We all pay for our mistakes in one way another, how you feel about what happened to your reputation or mental health however does not weigh into the judgement. There aren't indications here specifically targeting you or anything different than was announced for what myself and others that got hit with harassment complains got.

 

 

 

First of all, there is a gigantic difference between what I said, and what you said.

 

Mine should have been warning, and in my opinion yours was more of a cry for help.  It’s clear the pain you felt inside that made you attack that individual.

 

Second of all, it is the very nature of how you suspend people that we disagree on. Showing that you’re consistently over the top and wrong does not prove your point to me. It just shows a record of misunderstanding that is being led by you.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Tate

[Baozi 1,658]

5 minutes ago, Tate said:

First of all, there is a gigantic difference between what I said, and what you said.

 

Mine should have been warning, and in my opinion yours was more of a cry for help.  It’s clear the pain you felt inside that made you attack that individual.

 

Second of all, it is the very nature of how you suspend people that we disagree on. Showing that you’re consistently over the top and wrong does not prove your point to me. It just shows a record of misunderstanding that is being led by you.

 

 

What I mean was more that 2 weeks WAS a warning. Something you were referencing to. Other personal attacks past warning phase have typically led to perma or indefinite suspensions. I think its fine if you want to argue that warnings should be lighter perhaps but I just wanted to clarify that both yours and mine were essentially warnings.

 

I also want to point out that @Beketovown warning years ago was 8 weeks tpe ban.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Baozi

[Tate 450]

Just now, Baozi said:

 

What I mean was more that 2 weeks WAS a warning. Something you were referencing to. Other personal attacks past warning phase have typically led to perma or indefinite suspensions. I think its fine if you want to argue that warnings should be light perhaps but I just wanted to clarify that both yours and mine were essentially warnings.

I get the technicality but it is mind boggling to me that you care so much about that after all of the pain and hurt I’ve expressed. 
 

This is why I feel so frustrated in dealing with you. You’re more than happy to point in every direction but yourself. 
 

You know what I did when I made my mistake? I owned it and apologized to the person I offended. I went out of my way to make it right.

 

You go ahead and talk to them, ask Josh and Bek what I did behind the scenes. They know. 
 

I’m a good person who is worth fighting for, and even though you may not believe me when I say it but so are you.

 

[Beketov 9,025]

5 minutes ago, Baozi said:

I also want to point out that @Beketovown warning years ago was 8 weeks tpe ban.

Technically that was "third strike" despite them finding and punishing all three strikes at once without warning or clear rules.

 

But also why you gotta bring that up.

[Nykonax 1,564]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

But also why you gotta bring that up.

I don't know, can we really trust this commish if he was cheating point tasks 12 years ago?...

[Baozi 1,658]

4 minutes ago, Tate said:

I get the technicality but it is mind boggling to me that you care so much about that after all of the pain and hurt I’ve expressed. 

 

I like to be technical because I don't like misunderstandings of sorts.

 

4 minutes ago, Tate said:

You know what I did when I made my mistake? I owned it and apologized to the person I offended. I went out of my way to make it right.

 

I think that's good. At no point in time did I disparage this or say you didn't change or own up to what you did. Again it made me believe that the 2 week warning discipline action worked out and you basically learned from it.

 

4 minutes ago, Tate said:

I’m a good person who is worth fighting for, and even though you may not believe me when I say it but so are you.

 

I certainly don't think you are a bad person. I've said it multiple times now, we have a difference in values and views. I've acknowledged this and I've explained to you why we are different but I didn't say that you can't be you. Certainly if i did then I do apologize for that, I definitely mean it takes many people in many walks of life and we all have different life experiences so none of us are the same. That isn't even in a negative way. Its just to express uniqueness in each person. This is why i took the time to listen to your podcast and I replied back to you. 

 

Also please note I haven't discouraged or shut down any of this conversation because I think its fine to have these discussions. Certainly talking it through and having people voice concerns I've always welcomed.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Baozi

[Beketov 9,025]

2 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

I don't know, can we really trust this commish if he was cheating point tasks 12 years ago?...

15 years ago*

It also wasn't really against the rules then and now would just be considered affiliate welfare haha

[Tate 450]

44 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

I like to be technical because I don't like misunderstandings of sorts.

 

 

I think that's good. At no point in time did I disparage this or say you didn't change or own up to what you did. Again it made me believe that the 2 week warning discipline action worked out and you basically learned from it.

 

 

I certainly don't think you are a bad person. I've said it multiple times now, we have a difference in values and views. I've acknowledged this and I've explained to you why we are different but I didn't say that you can't be you. Certainly if i did then I do apologize for that, I definitely mean it takes many people in many walks of life and we all have different life experiences so none of us are the same. That isn't even in a negative way. Its just to express uniqueness in each person. This is why i took the time to listen to your podcast and I replied back to you. 

 

Also please note I haven't discouraged or shut down any of this conversation because I think its fine to have these discussions. Certainly talking it through and having people voice concerns I've always welcomed.

 

I liked your reply to me, but I also wanted to say thank you for writing a thoughtful finish to this debate. 
 

I do feel as though we’ve both been heard and been able to state our viewpoints.
 

Win win for both sides, in a way

 

Take care!

Edited November 3, 2022 by Tate

[Gustav 6,421]

4 hours ago, Spartan said:

briefly

 

Stop being me smh

[BOOM 8,749]

[Prof. Zach Enron 84]

@dlambif your gf still plays it might be a good time to lock her DMs

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by dart