Have we lost all diversity?

[Beketov 8,939]

I took a couple of weeks off of ranting because I was simming the WJC and didn't need the points but I'm back now with more old man ranting!

 

Back in my day we had diversity in our builds. Some guys were 2 way forwards, some were assist specialists, some were shutdown D-men, etc. Now, this is probably because none of us, save Scotty, had any lick of a clue as to what we were doing when it came to how STHS functioned. Basically no one had read the manual and the guide that now exists in basically every locker room to instruct where to spend your points wasn't floating around yet. So what happened?

 

Well, I was thinking about it yesterday when discussing diversity with @Beaviss. Ultimately I think we just all kinda learned what does and does not work in the sim engine. For example, @Will's last player John Locke proved you can be a hell of a scorer without wasting any points on passing. Someone before that (Boubabi maybe) realized that spending on Defense, even as a forward, makes you score more for reasons that don't tally make sense. Even before that we realized that skating is kinda essential, as is puck handling. So where has this all led us? Well unfortunately it has led us to a place where all builds are basically the same. only real difference being centres put points into Faceoff while wingers usually put it into checking. Everyone goes for max scoring, Puck Handling, Skating, and Defense (or at least to 90) as those have the biggest impacts. Just look at the top players, you'll see this build everywhere.

 

So, has this made us better or worse as a league? Hard to say. It's nice that we have kinda figured out the system but also worse because now everyone is basically the same which makes things more random and more boring. So how would we change it? Hard to say. Some say lowering our ratings might do it. Others say that we would need to use a different version of the sim. I think probably a combination but I'm not here to give solutions, I'm here to rant.

 

So yeah, discuss. Does it suck that the concept of builds has kinda gone down the toilet or is it cool that we all kinda learned how to game the game? You decide.

[Banackock 7,976]

Bring in what the SHL figured out many many seasons ago to prevent this.. templates, strengths and weaknesses and player types (enforcer, Sniper etc). 

 

Though, I like that this league offers the difference of that between the two. 

[Beketov 8,939]

2 minutes ago, Banackock said:

Bring in what the SHL figured out many many seasons ago to prevent this.. templates, strengths and weaknesses and player types (enforcer, Sniper etc). 

 

Though, I like that this league offers the difference of that between the two. 

Archetypes have been brought up a few times. It would potentially fix the problem but it could also potentially make it worse if everyone just decides to pick the one that they know STHS will like the most. On a personal level I just don't like the idea of capping out attributes, especially when we already have people who can basically max out.

 

P.S unrelated but your sig still says Kovalchuk has no team.

[Beaviss 4,956]

Id say we have im only on my 2nd character? if you can call Beau that, and the most exciting thing about making a new character is the name im going to choose. That should only be a small portion of the excitement of making a new character. The league is a one trick pony show atm when it comes to builds. 

 

Ways we can combat this are:

 

Templates or builds (snipers, playmakers, enforcers etc.) which would cap stats in different areas.

Change the value of each stat point (my personal favorite but I could see where @Beketov was coming from in the other thread)

A Random boosted stat when your character is created where they get a proficiency in that stat. Example: Keaton Louth is created and hes strong? takes one less TPE after 70 to earn a stat point in that stat.

 

[Beketov 8,939]

1 minute ago, Beaviss said:

A Random boosted stat when your character is created where they get a proficiency in that stat. Example: Keaton Louth is created and hes strong? takes one less TPE after 70 to earn a stat point in that stat.

While interesting in theory the backend tracking of this would be hell and I'm personally against anything randomized. Though I guess if we had only a few options and none were really *bad* it wouldn't be that major. But still, the tracking and coding would be hell.

[Beaviss 4,956]

Just now, Beketov said:

While interesting in theory the backend tracking of this would be hell and I'm personally against anything randomized. Though I guess if we had only a few options and none were really *bad* it wouldn't be that major. But still, the tracking and coding would be hell.

 

I just thought of it as I was typing im sure the answer is out there without capping stats. It just sucks for me as a almost first gen I cant get excited about making another character because he will do the same as the characters before him.

 

Could just be me but I could see it being a problem down the road if it isn't just me.

 

If i was going to fix it solo id say updated the STHS engine we use so no one has mastered it or figured it out. Tweak the amount of TPE it costs so max stats get 80's-90's across the boards instead of max everything. Thats what the GM leagues use and its awesome. I like going into the trade deadline and needing a defensive forward not just the highest TPE character.

[diamond_ace 3,107]

I'd say to try to switch to a later version of STHS. I know we've had issues getting the stats to come out comparably, but I'm not convinced they have to come out comparably - records could be pre-change and post-change, and we'd have TA and GA for defensive stats, and the fight to be the new best would be entertaining for the league.

[Quik 4,113]

3 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

I just thought of it as I was typing im sure the answer is out there without capping stats. It just sucks for me as a almost first gen I cant get excited about making another character because he will do the same as the characters before him.

 

Could just be me but I could see it being a problem down the road if it isn't just me.

 

If i was going to fix it solo id say updated the STHS engine we use so no one has mastered it or figured it out. Tweak the amount of TPE it costs so max stats get 80's-90's across the boards instead of max everything. Thats what the GM leagues use and its awesome. I like going into the trade deadline and needing a defensive forward not just the highest TPE character.

I mean, it’s been that way for years now. A lot of people combat that with mixing in a goalie here and there, or trying for weird builds that get no love (tough guy who maxes out fighting/checking/strength, defender who puts no tpe into scoring or passing, etc). 

 

Its part of the league where it’d be fairly difficult to do something like put in archetypes or change the update scale yet again. It’d be different if STHS has attributes like agility, acceleration, shot power/accuracy, or even aggressiveness and intelligence. Then it’d require a bit more specialization and lower attributes, but even that wouldn’t totally change the game. 

[Tyler 882]

42 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Someone before that (Boubabi maybe)

 

Scotty told me to add to defense to score more back in like Season 10 so it was well before bou lol

[Victor 10,829]

2 scoring centers

1 two-way center

1 defenceman

2 goalies

 

That's kept me going for around 9 years lol. I do struggle to think of what else I want to do apart from two-way winger but that's a pretty long period of time before becoming a problem.

[Banackock 7,976]

43 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Archetypes have been brought up a few times. It would potentially fix the problem but it could also potentially make it worse if everyone just decides to pick the one that they know STHS will like the most. On a personal level I just don't like the idea of capping out attributes, especially when we already have people who can basically max out.

 

P.S unrelated but your sig still says Kovalchuk has no team.

Hehe 

 

yeah. I think that’s how it will always be. 

[Banackock 7,976]

16 minutes ago, Tyler said:

 

Scotty told me to add to defense to score more back in like Season 10 so it was well before bou lol

It’s sort of a given. On SHL back in like S7-8 anyway haha

[Gooningitup 1,290]

I love building grinder goons. My last guy coming is going to be basically Tie Domi. I built Sergei to be my best chance at HOF which will obviously not happen. So now im just going back to beating faces in and crushing bodies

[Beketov 8,939]

22 minutes ago, Tyler said:

 

Scotty told me to add to defense to score more back in like Season 10 so it was well before bou lol

I think he kinda made it popular. Scotty new the tricks before anyone because he was the only one with the engine to test for awhile. Hardly can say every trend stems from Scotty though.

[CowboyinAmerica 2,840]

FWIW, I think this is the argument for keeping awards like the separate Offensive/Defensive D-Man, as well as Two Way Forwards. Rewards for different player builds.

[Beaviss 4,956]

8 minutes ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

FWIW, I think this is the argument for keeping awards like the separate Offensive/Defensive D-Man, as well as Two Way Forwards. Rewards for different player builds.

 

But how often does it go to a player that builds for it? Not often imo

[Victor 10,829]

8 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

But how often does it go to a player that builds for it? Not often imo

That.

 

Since we've now encroached into my favourite territory of 'Everything That's Wrong with the Wylde Trophy', I just want to say ^^^^ that, again, and also, All-VHL teams should address the fact that you can have a physical defenceman and/or a scoring defenceman. But there's not that much in between with this sim.

[Devise 4,475]

Yeah as nice as more player build variety would be, it would probably take a bit more of an overhaul to not only do it properly but justify it. I'd say replacing the sims would probably be the only really effective way to do it and see what happens. Even if that replacement sim eventually has it's own meta that everyone slowly follows, there would still be the period of learning that. Plus more stats and what have you. 

 

I also don't think that if we do player builds that it should be capped attributes. I think it makes more sense to just turn down the update scale for the strength attributes, and turn it higher for the weakness ones depending on the player build selection. We have a much deeper update scale now that allows for this flexibility without it tampering with caps, or the freedoms people have from building how they want to. We could easily offer a generic build too, that keeps the current update scale. The downside to that obviously is that you wouldn't be able to earn slightly easier on some attributes. 

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

Is this not the reason we increased the update scale at the higher levels? To create more diversity since it costs more to add to those attributes at higher values?

 

I don't think there are enough attributes to have archetypes (unlike the SBA and somewhat the EFL). And really, what's the difference between choosing a sniper/playmaker archetype versus just putting your points into those stats without an archetype? Unless you want to get into strengths/weaknesses costing (possibly) less/more TPE, which...meh.

[Devise 4,475]

18 minutes ago, Fire Hakstol said:

Is this not the reason we increased the update scale at the higher levels? To create more diversity since it costs more to add to those attributes at higher values?

 

I don't think there are enough attributes to have archetypes (unlike the SBA and somewhat the EFL). And really, what's the difference between choosing a sniper/playmaker archetype versus just putting your points into those stats without an archetype? Unless you want to get into strengths/weaknesses costing (possibly) less/more TPE, which...meh.

 

I think if we weren't so restrictive on archetypes but still offered strengths/weaknesses it could work. Like if it was just every player gets to choose two strength stats and two weakness stats, each of which have different update scales both harsher and easier depending on the stat. You could even name your player build whatever you wanted in this instance, instead of forcing the archetypes of sniper, etc. 

 

Obviously you'd have to restrict it so the two weaknesses are among the majority stats, ergo faceoffs included for centers but not for others. Experience not included.Leadership probably not as well. 

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

3 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

I think if we weren't so restrictive on archetypes but still offered strengths/weaknesses it could work. Like if it was just every player gets to choose two strength stats and two weakness stats, each of which have different update scales both harsher and easier depending on the stat. You could even name your player build whatever you wanted in this instance, instead of forcing the archetypes of sniper, etc. 

 

Obviously you'd have to restrict it so the two weaknesses are among the majority stats, ergo faceoffs included for centers but not for others. Experience not included.Leadership probably not as well. 

 

But I'm saying it's the same thing. It either costs more TPE to get my primary attribute to a high level or it costs more to get my weakness to a mid level. At the end of the day, it's the same thing, you're just changing where the TPE goes.

[BOOM 8,649]

This has convinced me. 100% TPE into leadership from this point. 

[Beaviss 4,956]

If we removed the auto maxed stats it might help 

[Beketov 8,939]

1 minute ago, Beaviss said:

If we removed the auto maxed stats it might help 

Durability and such? I think we have tested and it causes issues with the CPU players. There’s a reason our default 99’s are that way.

 

9 minutes ago, BOOM™ said:

This has convinced me. 100% TPE into leadership from this point. 

An all leadership build would be hilarious but sadly not worth wasting time on haha. This is the kind of thing PP2 was supposed to allow, weird fun builds, but everyone just used it to make the regular build with 2 guys and get burnt out.

[ColeMrtz 574]

On 9/18/2018 at 6:05 PM, BOOM™ said:

This has convinced me. 100% TPE into leadership from this point. 

Veteran leadership