Spartcast #4 - Recruitment, Retention, and Solving Problems

[Spartan 4,531]

Anchor Link: https://anchor.fm/spartan56/episodes/Spartcast-4---Recruitment--Retention--and-Solving-Problems-e1bd6pa

 

WARNING: I SWEAR A LOT. NOT. SAFE. FOR. WORK. Also made a oopsies and mentioned a no-no word, you have been warned.

 

Timestamps, Topics, Mentions:

 

0:00-1:06 

Intro

 

1:06-6:32 

Confession + Rage + Moscow/LVA LR Culture and Goals

@JardyB10 @samx @N0HBDY @Enorama @Doomsday @a_Fork @Blazzer @Alex_J32

 

6:32-17:50 

First-Gen Retention/VHLM GM Waiver Issues + Idea to fix both issues!

@Alex_J32 @McWolf  (@samx a bit I guess)

 

17:51-18:55

Rage + Idea Conclusion

 

18:55-25:30

VHLM League Size/Recruitment Methods Concerns

@MexicanCow123 since it relates to the Recruitment team

 

25:30-26:45

Forgetting what I heard on other podcasts

@JardyB10 @samx @N0HBDY @Berocka @dasboot @bigAL (I listened to your solo thing last night but forgot to mention it, was nice)

 

26:45-27:26

Rage

 

27:27-30:11

A What-If? to have potentially avoided the VHLE's existence

(I call the 1 and a half Aussies crew a bunch of snitches)

 

30:12-34:09

The VHLE is the best thing to happen to S80+ Goalies

@CowboyinAmerica @Beketov @fishy @16z @N0HBDY

 

34:10-39:17

VHLE Community Criticisms and how I'd revitalize/fix the VHLE

Edited December 8, 2021 by Spartan

[KaleebtheMighty 1,539]

I honestly appreciate your take on the culture of the E as a whole. We do need to do better. And I think things are stagnating right now to the point of it being a bit dead in terms of involvement. We need to fix it. And I think the start up of this league, being a bit rocky and clunky the past 2 seasons, has hurt it as well.

 

This might be a call for a lot of the VHLE GMs to start working on things to make it seem more exciting and meaningful. I’ll admit, right now it seems like a bump in the road on the way to the VHL. It needs some creativity and passion, but - as it was mentioned - some of us GMs have gotten complacent. Myself included.

 

I think it’s time to get to work on this. Regardless of people’s current opinions, it’s on the GMs and management to kick things into gear here.

[Spartan 4,531]

30 minutes ago, KaleebtheMighty said:

I honestly appreciate your take on the culture of the E as a whole. We do need to do better. And I think things are stagnating right now to the point of it being a bit dead in terms of involvement. We need to fix it. And I think the start up of this league, being a bit rocky and clunky the past 2 seasons, has hurt it as well.

 

This might be a call for a lot of the VHLE GMs to start working on things to make it seem more exciting and meaningful. I’ll admit, right now it seems like a bump in the road on the way to the VHL. It needs some creativity and passion, but - as it was mentioned - some of us GMs have gotten complacent. Myself included.

 

I think it’s time to get to work on this. Regardless of people’s current opinions, it’s on the GMs and management to kick things into gear here.

My comments were mostly geared towards the community outside the VHLE's response to the league, but I always appreciate some self-introspection. You weren't one of the GM's I had an issue with for the initial hiring, since you were somewhat fresh enough to be considered a newer GM. However, if you recognize that your activity in the E as a GM and leader has waned, I applaud it. If you want an active member in your locker room, feel free to reach out. I'd be happy to join and pop in from time to time.

 

On a different note, I will always consider the E as the optimal place for new GM's to start off, so it bothered me a bit that veteran users with lots of league experience were getting those jobs when they really didn't need it. It wasn't a promotion in my eyes at least but I know the E was viewed as one back then. I didn't even think it would become a stepping stone to the VHL and it really hasn't been, so hopefully the purpose changes a bit when it comes to GM hires. Maybe it's just scratched the competitive itch for a few folks, which I can respect, but I'd really like to see it become the entry level position where people figure out if they're good at teaching, or if they're good at competing. The fresh perspectives and energy new people bring in would really energize the league, which it sorely needs. For now though, it's on the current GM's and anyone that supports the E's purpose and cause to make it a desirable place for players to be.

[KaleebtheMighty 1,539]

Oh I didn’t take your podcast as a concern towards my GM role specifically! Rather an overall concern that as someone in that role I can do something about in a way. And I agree with it being more of an entry level ordeal, but I also understand why some veterans were brought in initially to start it off. Thanks again for your podcast and discussion points, and when I have a free moment I’d be more than happy to invite you into the Red Wolves locker room!

[Beketov 9,102]

Basically just listened to the VHLE section as I was curious about that (appreciate the time stamps)
 

- So the main issue I have with your “what if” is two-fold: first that third like minutes suck. Like 8 minutes a game is horrible and boring (I did it for two seasons with Lahtinen, you saw how that went) so throwing those players in there just to say they are in the VHL doesn’t make it a good experience for them, I would argue it’s a worse experience than being in the VHLE and getting to actually play. The second part you kinda touched on which is that having to actually check to make sure that all the “third line” players who are being used to bump the cap up are only being used on third and 4th lines over 16 different teams just sounds like a huge amount of unnecessary and unpleasant micromanaging.

 

- You’re definitely right on goalies getting a big benefit from the VHLE, especially when it comes to ROTY. Of course maybe I would have had more of a chance if you didn’t fuck up lines in S79  . Back in the day it wasn’t as common to have to deal with the backup season since there weren’t as many goalies and you could come immediately into a starting spot but that doesn’t really happen much anymore.

 

- Agee I wonder why indeed! If all you see is people talking shit about something then obviously you’re going to start believing it and therefore you’re going to make it shit. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Back in the day everyone hated being in the VHLM and we set it up to fail so it tended to. Then we got a bunch of new people that didn’t know it supposedly sucked and they all loved it, now it’s doing a lot better. If you allow something to grow and succeed it can. If you give it less than a season before declaring “yup, this sucks” then it will suck.

 

- The speedrun off season was bad and I should have realized how short I was making it when I was modifying the schedule. It was definitely an awkward day of the week for the season to end combined with drafts that happened quickly. On paper it seemed fine but in practice it obviously was way too rushed, even if people do want to complain about long off seasons.

[Spartan 4,531]

2 minutes ago, Beketov said:

- So the main issue I have with your “what if” is two-fold: first that third like minutes suck. Like 8 minutes a game is horrible and boring (I did it for two seasons with Lahtinen, you saw how that went) so throwing those players in there just to say they are in the VHL doesn’t make it a good experience for them, I would argue it’s a worse experience than being in the VHLE and getting to actually play. The second part you kinda touched on which is that having to actually check to make sure that all the “third line” players who are being used to bump the cap up are only being used on third and 4th lines over 16 different teams just sounds like a huge amount of unnecessary and unpleasant micromanaging.

It was yet another pseudo-SHL idea where they ran 3 lines, and sort of relied on the community aspect to retain folks instead of the actual performance on the ice. I recognize that people in the VHL are more motivated by ice time and performance as you touched on, but just spitballed for shits and gigs about what could have been implemented. But if the people playing on those lines are clickers who have very little forum or discord presence, I can't imagine that they'd really be that vocal about their playing time like a commissioner would be lol. But yeah, too much of a logistical nightmare and all that, just interesting to think about.

 

4 minutes ago, Beketov said:

- You’re definitely right on goalies getting a big benefit from the VHLE, especially when it comes to ROTY. Of course maybe I would have had more of a chance if you didn’t fuck up lines in S79  . Back in the day it wasn’t as common to have to deal with the backup season since there weren’t as many goalies and you could come immediately into a starting spot but that doesn’t really happen much anymore.

Ok listen I know I fucked up lines, but you wouldn't have been eligible this season anyways because you would have played 8 backup games in S80 behind Rara, taking you to 16 if you only played 8 in each season. You really had no realistic shot in my plan, sorry bud. At least now you've got a bunch of seasons to win more meaningful awards!

 

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

- Agee I wonder why indeed! If all you see is people talking shit about something then obviously you’re going to start believing it and therefore you’re going to make it shit. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Back in the day everyone hated being in the VHLM and we set it up to fail so it tended to. Then we got a bunch of new people that didn’t know it supposedly sucked and they all loved it, now it’s doing a lot better. If you allow something to grow and succeed it can. If you give it less than a season before declaring “yup, this sucks” then it will suck.

I'll happily claim that I was one of the new folks back in S71 who loved the M and decided to stick around it and love it some more. More E passionate people will come soon enough, just gotta start questioning folks when they criticize the E baselessly. Try to make them rationalize why they don't like the E instead of allowing them to blindly follow E hate.

 

7 minutes ago, Beketov said:

- The speedrun off season was bad and I should have realized how short I was making it when I was modifying the schedule. It was definitely an awkward day of the week for the season to end combined with drafts that happened quickly. On paper it seemed fine but in practice it obviously was way too rushed, even if people do want to complain about long off seasons.

It is what it is, I just didn't expect that from you guys since you're usually very intentional and aware of what needs to happen in an offseason. Speedrunning the one critical offseason for the implementation of a new league that has commissioners in two wildly different timezones just baffled me, and felt like the E was tossed behind the 8 ball from the start. But it'll get back on track soon enough.

[JardyB10 4,869]

- I’m an annoying piece of shit, so I guess the precludes me from being in the Moscow LR

 

- I feel like perma-signing VHLM players could be problematic. I could see that leading to severely imbalanced rosters, not to mention it doesn’t fully get rid of the draft. Also, it’s not like the incentive to sign waivers doesn’t already exist. If a GM isn’t offering players, it’s for one of three reasons: 1. They suck, 2. Their roster is already too full and they feel the player would be better served on an emptier roster, or 3. The player already signed with a different team before the GM even had a shot at offering. Making the players permanent signings won’t make GMs suck less, it would encourage overloading rosters which isn’t good, and it would put even more pressure on GMs to be on constantly, which is maybe “good” but very unhealthy.

 

I think if we wanted to restructure waivers, we’d need to address the issues you laid out AND some of these issues. Maybe we could develop a system in the create a player process where the new member is sent to a page where they can quickly and easily analyze each VHLM team, they can submit a Top 3 or 5 wishlist based on that info, and GMs are then notified? (Essentially, players offer GMs instead of vice versa)

 

- Porn

 

- I think large recruitment drives are ALWAYS good, there just needs to be some more coordination between recruitment and VHLM. I work in construction so I know that’s easier said than done, and lots of processes take time, but a couple extra teams would have been nice this season

 

- “One and a half Aussies does a good job of checking teams for compliance.” I’m fairly sure they just stumbled into the DC thing, lol 

 

- I agree 100% that the anti-VHLE culture is way more harmful to it than anything about the league itself. It’s poisoning the well, as Al put it on our podcast.

 

Overall, very well presented podcast despite the stresses of driving and all that fun jazz. 6/9.

[Spartan 4,531]

17 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

I’m an annoying piece of shit, so I guess the precludes me from being in the Moscow LR

Hm, I think you'd be fine if we let you in. I could use another person to help me bully @N0HBDY though.

 

18 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

- I feel like perma-signing VHLM players could be problematic. I could see that leading to severely imbalanced rosters, not to mention it doesn’t fully get rid of the draft. Also, it’s not like the incentive to sign waivers doesn’t already exist. If a GM isn’t offering players, it’s for one of three reasons: 1. They suck, 2. Their roster is already too full and they feel the player would be better served on an emptier roster, or 3. The player already signed with a different team before the GM even had a shot at offering. Making the players permanent signings won’t make GMs suck less, it would encourage overloading rosters which isn’t good, and it would put even more pressure on GMs to be on constantly, which is maybe “good” but very unhealthy.

The intention with this structure is not to fully get rid of the draft, simply to reduce the over-reliance some teams place on it. I've never found it pleasant as an M GM to develop a player for the better part of a season, build a good relationship with that player, and integrate them to my team's community - only to see them get drafted to some other team who rostered 3 players the season before in order to stockpile a bunch of draft picks and then circumvent draft pick limits on/after draft day. We already have had a bunch of imbalanced rosters recently because of rampant tanking or GM's going all in and losing all their assets. At least a partially permanent waiver system would encourage GM's to really develop and retain the players they sign with the knowledge they can't just ditch them in the next draft and replace them with 4 first-gens who exploded out of the gate and built a good reputation for themselves, or were guided by other GM's who spent a lot of time helping them out.

 

Any person who earns well would graduate out of the M pretty quickly anyways. Most recreates who create right after the draft will not play a second VHLM season. Recreates at or after TDL would go into the draft, which is meant to balance out rosters a bit. With a 200 cap, you're not going to see anyone sticking around long enough for there to be a "competitive" issue. 

 

I also understand that it would put more GM's under pressure to be on forums, so I had some other ideas around that. Some leagues have mandatory hold periods before a player can sign with a team, so that players have time to understand what they're walking into (usually guided by a rookie mentor or others in the community), and so that GM's have more time to send players offers without the fear they're going to immediately accept the first offer they see. Overall though, I think we need to overhaul what new members see when they first join this community and how they're assisted, and not let them just get ass blasted by M GM's copying/pasting pitches to try and be the first ones to offer on a player.

 

27 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

I think if we wanted to restructure waivers, we’d need to address the issues you laid out AND some of these issues. Maybe we could develop a system in the create a player process where the new member is sent to a page where they can quickly and easily analyze each VHLM team, they can submit a Top 3 or 5 wishlist based on that info, and GMs are then notified? (Essentially, players offer GMs instead of vice versa)

When I was an M GM there were discussions about each team posting blurbs on the portal and the new create selecting the team they wanted to join. I didn't really like that idea back then since it felt very inorganic and had absolutely no personal interaction. I still don't like it, and don't really support it since it continues to push the mistaken first-gen narrative of "portal is love portal is life." I think adding a hold period before a first gen can sign, but having people in contact with them from the time they create would be better for retention, and also for the poor M GM's who need to get players to join them. I don't trust a first-gen who puts TPE into leadership to be taking the time and effort to learn about VHLM teams and requesting to join one.

 

33 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

- Porn

heh

 

33 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

- I think large recruitment drives are ALWAYS good, there just needs to be some more coordination between recruitment and VHLM. I work in construction so I know that’s easier said than done, and lots of processes take time, but a couple extra teams would have been nice this season

I love seeing successful recruitment drives. Aka, I like seeing high retention rates, not just high volume. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I just think that the situation changes every other season. We had too many empty teams last season, now we have too many full teams this season. Instead, if we had advertised on a slightly smaller community since we already had a pretty solid M community from the large S81 class, maybe we still would have had a successful recruitment drive with decent retention, without the overloading volume that's handicapped the M this season. We can't keep adding and cutting teams for the VHLM based on what happened the previous season, there really needs to be some more planning and coordination as you said.

 

36 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

- “One and a half Aussies does a good job of checking teams for compliance.” I’m fairly sure they just stumbled into the DC thing, lol 

Probably lol, I just like giving folks shit when there's a window to do it  

 

36 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

- I agree 100% that the anti-VHLE culture is way more harmful to it than anything about the league itself. It’s poisoning the well, as Al put it on our podcast.

I'm taking the small step to join E LR's to try and facilitate more interactions and hopefully others will want to do so as well. I may try to shift my content over to the VHLE in due time to try and emphasize the good the league provides. I'll have to see how I want to do that.

 

Thanks for listening and commenting