Official Movie Discussion

[Sandro 251]

Seeing as they appear to be setting up Avengers 3 to be the Avengers and the Guardians teaming up to take on Thanos, let's take a moment to look at the potential cast for Avengers 3:

• Robert Downey Jr - Tony Stark / Iron Man
• Chris Hemsworth - Thor
• Mark Ruffalo - Bruce Banner / Hulk
• Chris Evans - Steve Rogers / Captain America
• Scarlett Johansson - Natasha Romanoff / Black Widow
• Jeremy Renner - Clint Barton / Hawkeye
• Aaron Taylor-Johnson - Pietro Maximoff / Quicksilver
• Elizabeth Olsen - Wanda Maximoff / Scarlet Witch
• Anthony Mackie - Sam Wilson / Falcon
• Don Cheadle - Col. James Rhodes / War Machine
• Cobie Smulders - Maria Hill
• Samuel L Jackson - Nick Fury
• Paul Bettany - The Vision
• Paul Rudd - Scott Lang / Ant-Man
• Chris Pratt - Peter Quill / Star-Lord
• Zoe Saldana - Gamora
• Dave Bautista - Drax the Destroyer
• Vin Diesel - Groot
• Bradley Cooper - Rocket Racoon
• Michael Rooker - Yondu
• Karen Gillan - Nebula
• Josh Brolin - Thanos

This on top of Doctor Strange (already announced for Phase 3) as well of the teasing of Adam Warlock in both Thor: The Dark World and Guardians of the Galaxy. Plus there are Phase 3 release dates that we don't know the name of yet, and some of those are certainly going to be new characters.

 

Basically, Avengers 3: Holy Fuck Our Cast Is Massive and We're Going To Make Billions of Dollars.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Sandro

[.sniffuM 1,741]

I feel like by that point the superhero craze will die and they'll regret it. Movie trends just don't last long, the general public can only direct their attention at the same thing for so long.

[Sandro 251]

Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Sure, you could shoehorn things into being a "superhero" movie but I think Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy have shown you can deviate from the traditional superhero movie format. The Winter Soldier went into espionage/thriller territory and Guardians was a big space opera in the vein of Star Wars.

 

If Marvel continues with their plan of one new property and a sequel every year while continuing to venture into different genres, things could stay fresh for quite some time. Plus you have to consider that Guardians has opened up a whole other can of worms with the Cosmic side of Marvel.

[Sandro 251]

BTW I totally forgot Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes / The Winter Soldier, but I think there's a chance Steve Rogers dies in Cap 3 and Bucky takes over. SO MANY PEOPLE.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

I'm just saying, the general viewer doesn't view it as "oh yeah, Guardians of the Galaxy has obscure characters but it's a fresh take on the superhero genre because it's edgy and in space", they view it as "lol goin to see another superhero movie". The superhero trend is gonna go the way of the found footage horror genre, the vampire genre and the mech/sci-fi genre before it reaches the point of Avengers 3. What I don't understand is why movie executives can never predict this when it has happened to them so many times before.

[Sandro 251]

Comics have survived decades, superheros have been cool -- at least to kids -- for just as long. We're just entering an age where "normal" people in their 20s and 30s aren't leaving those things behind in their childhood anymore. Considering the size of the MCU, I don't think it's going away any time soon.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

The Avengers made $1.5 billion US dollars worldwide. Assuming an average ticket price of $12.50, that's roughly 121.5 million people going to see the movie. I'll be modest and say half of those people are comic book fans who are diehard fans and would go to any Marvel or DC movie. Even then, when they eventually lose the other half of that fan base (and they absolutely will; to say they won't is ignorant and ignores essentially every trend in movie history), they will be left with ~$750 million in grosses on what is the most profitable venture they've had. Movie studios pay out half of their box office grosses to the theaters, which would leave $375 million to cover production, print and advertising costs. Of course, there is also merchandise and home media sales, a big reason why this trend is safer than most in Hollywood have been, but eventually these movies that have gone from niche to mainstream will fall back into niche and be taken over by nachos flying spaceships or whatever stupid trend will be big in a few years.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Muffins

[Sandro 251]

I'm not saying things won't slow down, but my point is this isn't like it would've been even 15 years ago where to be an adult and still be into comic books and superheros was looked down upon. Look at events like Comic-Con, people go absolutely nuts for these movies. That's not going to disappear overnight, in fact it's growing. We are in a period of time where being a "nerd" is the cool thing to do. I'm sure it'll pass eventually, but as long as they keep making good movies people are going to go see them.

[Mike 708]

Guardians was fucking awesome my favorite of the series.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

I'm not saying things won't slow down, but my point is this isn't like it would've been even 15 years ago where to be an adult and still be into comic books and superheros was looked down upon. Look at events like Comic-Con, people go absolutely nuts for these movies. That's not going to disappear overnight, in fact it's growing. We are in a period of time where being a "nerd" is the cool thing to do. I'm sure it'll pass eventually, but as long as they keep making good movies people are going to go see them.

That's the main issue though. A big part of making movies that continue to be good is to bring fresh things to them to keep the casual moviegoers coming. There haven't been trends that have been able to survive like that over the long term for a long time.

[Sandro 251]

And like I said, I think Marvel's catalogue is big enough to do new things with each movie. Guardians has blown the doors off on Cosmic Marvel, there's a whole lot more possibilities opened up there. That movie was also a space opera, the best description I've seen for it calls it a "Star Wars movie where everyone is Han Solo."

 

Captain America veered off into political/spy thriller territory.

 

The Avengers is just a crazy action flick that doesn't take itself too seriously, and brings all these stories together at various points before they branch out again.

 

Thor is... Well, I honestly don't care much for the standalone Thor films.

 

Iron Man is probably the most stereotypical superhero movie of the bunch, and we don't even know if there will be another standalone movie for him. At least with RDJ involved, and that's pretty important seeing as he basically is Tony Stark.

 

But beyond that a whole bunch of new elements are coming to the table. Thanos, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Doctor Strange, Ant-Man, and possibly Adam Warlock are all very different from what we've been used to seeing.

 

Take a look at the major blockbusters planned for the next few years. Besides Star Wars, almost all of it is derived from comic books. What the hell else is going to knock it off anyways? The summer blockbuster has always been around and likely always will. I think the longevity of this fad -- if you want to call it that -- will be greatly influenced by the success (or lack thereof) that DC/Warner Bros, Fox, and Sony have with the franchises they're trying to build. Personally, I wish Fox and Sony would give Marvel's properties back to Marvel so we can get those characters involved in the MCU and build towards the Civil War storyline. It's just not possible with Spider-Man, the X-Men, and the Fantastic Four being off at different studios.

 

Another key to the success is that these movies are not doing straight adaptions; they're establishing another universe that stands on its own alongside the Marvel Multiverse. Characters are going to die and be replaced, they'll evolve over time as new filmmakers get their hands involved in the MCU. It's not impossible for them to adapt, and it's not as if the success of superhero films is all that new anymore. It's been 12 years since Sam Raimi's Spider-Man. Those movies are very different from how these movies are handled nowadays. The MCU is going on 7 years and has the marketing power of Disney behind it. This trend will be around a while yet, I'm sure of it.

[diamond_ace 3,112]

Haven't seen GOTG yet but seeing it tomorrow. I'll be happy with it if Karen Gillan's character is not a one-movie character.

[Devise 4,475]

Damien I can respect your opinion, but you are taking a very reductionist approach to this. The whole "super hero movies are popular ergo it's a trend ergo it will die" point of view, simply ignores the actual nature of the "trend" and what motivates it. It also would be a very long trend already if you think about it.

 

Since 2002 when the first Spider Man released, there has been a movie based on a comic book every single year that has been successful at the box office. EVERY SINGLE YEAR. 2002 had Spider Man which grossed 821 Million. 2003 had X-2 which grossed 407 million. 2004 Spider Man 2 grossed 783 million. 2005 had several movies based on comics successful at the box office, Batman Begins, Constantine, Fantastic Four, V for Vendetta. The highest gross that year was Begins with 374 Million. 2006 had X-Men and Superman Returns. X-Men Grossed 459 Million. 2007 saw Spider Man 3 and Fantatsic Four 2 both turn good profits. 2008 saw the darker turn of the genre with The Dark Knight, obviously I don't need to state it was a success, Iron Man also came out that year. While a weaker year 2009 still had successes in Watchmen and X-men Origins Wolverine. 2010 had Iron Man 2, 2011 Thor, X-Men First Class. 2012 boasted 3 super successful blockbuster comic book movies with Avengers, Amazing Spider Man and Dark Knight Rises. In 2013 Iron Man 3, Man of Steel and Thor 2 all grossed over 500 Million. 2014 thus far Captain America Winter Soldier, X-Men Days of Future Past and Amazing Spider Man 2 all grossed over 600 million. Guardians of the Galaxy will probably hit a billion if we are being honest.

 

This isn't a simple "trend" Damien. It's overall growth of societies acceptance of geek culture. It isn't just comic books either. Go to the movies and watch the trailers. Tell me something that isn't a sequel, based on a comic book, video game, or book itself, or who's plot isn't basically just a super hero movie? When I was a kid, you could put Sly Stallone on the cover of a movie poster as your star and that movie would be your big action Hollywood summer block buster. Nowadays? Sly with an entire ensemble cast of people in an action movie can barely turn a profit. It's an overall changing of the guard in the entire film industry. Movies that have single stars now even if they aren't based on a comic book, are basically comic book movies. That is to say it isn't just a dude, dude with either get powers, or get a suit, or something. 

 

But that geek culture becoming main stream is something that is more than a trend. Look at the things in general that have begun to get more and more popular throughout the 2000's and in the decade we are in. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Matrix, Comic Book Movies, Game of Thrones, The Hobbit, The Hunger Games, The Harry Potter Franchise, and I could keep going. You combine the increase in acceptance of geek culture with the greatest connection tool known to man, that also has increased the word to mouth of EVERYTHING in the internet, and you get something that is much more than a trend. 

 

Casual audiences when I was younger liked movies and TV shows that you didn't need to know 18 different backstories of had seen previous things. They loved stuff you could skip 5 weeks of on TV and watch and still be caught up because it wasn't that type of show. Things like Friends and Seinfield and Fraiser, sitcoms were super popular. Now? Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Dexter, House of Cards, Boardwalk Empire, Lost. Shows that have a very strict narrative and if you miss an episode your left in the dark. But again, there is a reason the world has changed and embraced this type of stuff. The internet. People can more readily access the episodes they missed via downloads, tivo, netflix. People can get on and discuss how overly complicated something is with their friends. It is for this reason that the casual audiences have allowed the overall Marvel Cinematic Universe to get as deep as it is and still let it continue going deeper. Because simply put, they don't treat it like a comic book movie anymore. It's a movie with a connected universe. That's it. 

 

At the end of the day to me this is more than just a trend. It helps represent an entire societal shift, and I think a time when a big major comic book blockbuster is no longer considered to be successful at the box office is many years off. Probably in the 2020's if you want my honest opinion. Another big factor that gets overlooked as to why it's been such a success, it's because the movies themselves have been good. Green Lantern was a piece of shit movie, it didn't gross as much as other comic book movies. As long as the creators of these films make something that the casual audiences can enjoy, the fact that it is a super hero movie or has a connected universe as I've established is something that doesn't bother the majority. So if the movie is good, people will continue to see them. 

[Victor 11,009]

Oh boy, it's been a while. Devise couldn't wait any longer.

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

Six paragraphs, I'm seeing double

[Spangle 49]

Damien - 0

Devise - 1

 

#rekt

[Sandro 251]

Basically what I was trying to say but longer and not gibberish typed out by a tired person. Bravo, Devise.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

Agree to disagree, you can call it a change in culture or whatever you want it but I'm calling it a trend. That it has lasted longer than most trends is because of: 1) the fact that merchandising gives these movies a failsafe, similar to animated family films; 2) it's a trend that didn't come from thin air. It had a built in fan base and has converted some people as well. Sure, nerd culture is becoming much more acceptable, but I think everyone's overestimating the power of this.

At the end of the day, I see myself as a casual viewer. Although that's not fully true (I won't ever go see a shitty 70 minute action movie and I've never seen a movie with Stallone or Schwarzenagger in my life), when it comes to these superhero movies, I think it applies well. I know plenty of people who wear their nerdom proudly and go to see every single one of these movies. I've also never met a single person who has been converted from not being a fan when the craze started (it didn't fully start with Iron Man, but I'd say that's where their trajectory got some consistency) to being all in diehards that would go to see a Bouncing Boy movie if they made one.

I do know a lot of people who, 10 years ago, definitely wouldn't have watched a superhero movie but have since bought into it. These are the same people who can't wait for Transformers 5 and thought Fast 6 was the best movie of 2013. They are, by definition, casual moviegoers. I know I'm pigeonholing these movies by just calling them superhero movies, but casual fans aren't gonna watch every preview and read every comic on a movie. The commercials have to do the job of selling the film's premise as something unique and worth seeing. And although it may not make sense given my argument, I think that Guardians had the level of success it did (94 million outdoes even modest expectations) because of counterprogramming. This summer has sucked for movies. July fell below $1 billion for thw first time since 2002; Transformers is trecking in at $100 million less in the US than the last one did. With so many shitty movies having good openings and then dying because they're not well reveived (Lucy, Transformers, Godzilla, etc.) it helped that the movie was back to the usual of superhero movies.

Still, if you expand from true "superhero" movies and look at comic book movies, the prospects dim. Dredd did shit all in the box office. Watchmen absolutely was not a success (it made $55 million more in the box office than its production budget, but that's not counting marketing and print costs and of course the fact that theaters take in half of the movie grosses), and X-Men, at best, has been a stagnant franchise. Even with a huge cast on the newest movie, the film died off the box office pretty hard. International grosses certainly help these films, but if they don't make enough money in the US, eventually they're going to pander to the international crowds which means less narrative and more actions because that plays very well in Europe and Asia.

To close off, I offer to people who think I'm getting "rekt" because I don't support their point of view to look at Spiderman. The first two were huge successes, sure, and the third one made good money as well. Since then the franchise has tapered off significantly because of misguided attempts to freshen up the franchise and just from franchise fatigue. Anyone who thinks this won't happen to the other films is being naive. Once people grow sick of seeing these characters every two months, and trust me they will, the money will stop rolling in and Hollywood will move on.

But please, keep saying I'm getting rekt by looking at things logically rather than with the longing eye of a fan. It makes you sound very intelligent and really adds a lot to the argument.

[Spangle 49]

 

But please, keep saying I'm getting rekt by looking at things logically rather than with the longing eye of a fan. It makes you sound very intelligent and really adds a lot to the argument.

 

I was honestly kidding, but alright. #rekt

 

Though, I am not a huge comic book guy myself, so you're picking a fight with the wrong fan. I just like the superhero movies. I know fuck all about the characters or the world they have when I go see them. So while Sandro's freaking out about Thanos being introduced, I have no clue who he is. 

[.sniffuM 1,741]

When I'm getting into a heated but civil debate and that flies in, well, you can understand my being annoyed by it.

[Devise 4,475]

Damien if you honestly think I look at things at some kind of "super fan" you are sorely mistaken. The fact that you say "I"ve never seen a typical Hollywood blockbuster film with X star in it" speaks only to your age. In the 90's this is exactly the type of staff casual movie goers would go see. Also using your limited view of the world to say I've never known anyone to convert to a super fan from being a casual movie goer (and defining what a casual movie goer is) hurts your arguments credibility. I gather my insight from what I would consider a hardcore movie goer by the people I do not know. The conversations I hear from casuals at the movie theater, the conversations you can see on blogs/Facebook by non die hard fans.

 

The fact is, people have accepted this type of movie as more than a fad or a trend. It's accepted as just being another type of movie. Again it's proven by the fact that if the movie is high quality people will see it. That remains the case regardless of actually genre as well. Word of mouth has such a high amount of viability now, that people will see movies that get good audience response initially. You talk of movies like Dredd, like Transformers slowing down. Wonder why? Because people see it and don't like it. What do they do? Tell people they don't like it. You know how many people go to a side like Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, see early review scores and then go watch stuff based on that? Tons. Is it crazy to see that Guardians had a huge word of mouth and solid Rotten Tomatoes score and of course...people go see it. Again as I stated, as long as the people making this movies continue to make good movies, people will go to see them.

 

You also show your ignorance in your post. Every two months? The Marvel cinematic universe has released two movies a year for the last little bit. All the other comic book or super hero movies come from other studios. X-Men faltering? Reviews and reception and sales figures for X-Men Days of Future past show that franchise is going nowhere but up. The other that shows your ignorance is the "people will get sick of these characters." What characters? Avengers was the last team up movie we got, and then we got different characters in different movies rolled out throughout the years. It isn't like it's being saturated with the same 5 characters in every movie. Captain America had Shield and Cap, thats it. Thor had nobody but the Asgaredian characters and people from the first movie. Guardians of the Galaxy is pretty much all new characters. Considering the continued plan to roll out new characters like Doctor Strange, and how it seems like Marvel is content on doing at the very most 3 "base" movies for each character, we probably won't see another Iron Man. We will see one more Captain American and one more Thor. But all that will be after Avengers 2 next year. The fact is, it isn't the same characters again and again.

 

Also the whole get wrecked stuff is side commentary by other members. You don't need to focus on that. If you feel strongly about your opinion, I'm glad for it. I just don't think you have the evidence you to, and you continue to reduce the nature of this argument and the nature of the facts you rely on (casual movie goers, what constitutes a successful box office movie, etc) all based on your strictly limited view on things. If a movie doubles it's production costs, which these movies have been doing even back in the days of 2002, it will continued to get made by the executives. When you add in that if it hits these have a chance of making upwards of 600 million dollars, they will double down on them...which is exactly whats happening. I'm not denying that people won't eventually move on but I don't think it'll be because the audience simply gets sick of seeing these movies. I think it'll move on after specifically the Marvel Cinematic Movie Universe explores enough of what it wants to explore. Eventually something NEW will come out that will catch on and be bigger, but that doesn't mean that for the time they still won't make super hero movies and they still won't sell. 

[Spangle 49]

The fact is, people have accepted this type of movie as more than a fad or a trend. It's accepted as just being another type of movie. Again it's proven by the fact that if the movie is high quality people will see it. That remains the case regardless of actually genre as well. Word of mouth has such a high amount of viability now, that people will see movies that get good audience response initially. You talk of movies like Dredd, like Transformers slowing down. Wonder why? Because people see it and don't like it. What do they do? Tell people they don't like it. You know how many people go to a side like Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, see early review scores and then go watch stuff based on that? Tons. Is it crazy to see that Guardians had a huge word of mouth and solid Rotten Tomatoes score and of course...people go see it. Again as I stated, as long as the people making this movies continue to make good movies, people will go to see them.

 

Can confirm that I base what I will go to theaters to see on Rotten Tomatoes. I research the movies I plan on seeing months in advance based on who's directing it, who the actors are, etc., I keep an eye on when it'll be released, watch the trailers when they come out, and when reviews start coming in I keep an eye on it. If the reviews blow, my interest in watching it dwindles. If the reviews are good, I get excited and want to see it in theaters. Though, shit reviews don't completely make me not want to see something (i.e. I still want to see The Monuments Men in spite of its shit reviews), but shit reviews guarantee I won't see it in theaters since there's no point in spending that much on a movie that is likely not that good. When it came to Guardians of the Galaxy, I wasn't really that interested in seeing it until I started hearing the good buzz surrounding it then I planned on going to see it. That happens plenty of times as well. I do a lot of research on upcoming movies and have a big list of what I want to see, but good buzz for a movie I may have not been interested in initially is always quite convincing. GotG is just a recent example of that for me.

 

Also, on Dredd, it actually has solid reviews. Got a 78% (6.5/10 average score) on Rotten Tomatoes, which is alright and Reddit, in particular, hypes it to no end. It just had no marketing, since I had never heard of it until I started frequenting Reddit.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Spangle

[.sniffuM 1,741]

1. The super fan thing was more directed at Sandro.

 

2. I never said you don't know anyone who hasn't been converted. For how long you've known me, do you honestly think I'd say something so stupid? I was referring to myself not knowing anyone who has gone all in on this universe that wasn't already a pre-existing fan.

 

3. The stuff I said about peoples' views on other movies? I got those from Facebook/hearing people talking about them too. You think I just pulled that out of my ass? The thing is, America is the most important singular market to any movie. Sure, international grosses can outweigh those in the US, but China is the only market that can come close to competing with the money made in the US. Americans are stupid, especially moviegoers. I went to see Hercules the other day because friends wanted to go, and the only opinion anyone expressed walking out was that the Rock looked huge. Again, these are the type of people that thought freaking Fast 6 was an amazing movie. Once the attention span of Americans turns them to something else, these movies will rely much more heavily on international grosses, which can't always make up for that difference.

 

4. 2 months was hyperbole.

 

5. Movies doubling their production costs, just from box office grosses, again, are NOT successful financial movies unless their production cost was under $50 million, which would also suggest a light marketing push. Print and advertising are significant expenses, as are salaries of the actors in the movies. Yes, executives will and have doubled down on these movies, like they always do when a new trend comes around. And, eventually, this oversaturation causes people to not want to see these movies anymore, like they always do when a new trend comes around.

 

You may think my view is too limited or I'm to young or whatever to form a viable opinion on this. That's fine. You think these movies will hit a certain point before they begin to decline, I think they'll begin to decline earlier than that point. That's fine.

 

Just ask CoachReilly about Albert Pujols, you'll get a better sense of my prediction abilities.

[Sandro 251]

Definitely not a super fan, I'm not huge into comics but I know the history and I look into stuff the MCU hints at bringing in. And Fast 6 was entertaining as fuck, don't hate.

[Devise 4,475]

Fast 6 was an entertaining overly formulaic romp. It was watchable. But I see his point of it being crazy for someone to call it somehow the best movie of 2013. The thing is I generally view the blockbusters on a different scale of indies, or films that are a little more intelligent and less formulaic. That isn't to say there can't be good blockbusters, even when compared to the real elite stuff, it's usually just few and far between. 

 

I mean Guardians was great. But plot wise it's pretty much the same thing as Avengers, and has a lot in common with Thor. Group of characters come together, ancient artifact/item of power is in play, half the movie is about stopping the villain from attaining that power/using it, the second half is the villain getting it and a over the top end of civilization battle. In almost all cases the villain wants to conquer or destroy. They still execute it great, and obviously from a character perspective there are differences. But calling it formulaic is hardly wrong.