The Hybrid Attributes are ruining the League

[Berocka 2,196]

The Hybrid Attributes are ruining the League

 

This might be clickbait but who doesn’t love a nice title that bites. Anyway, let me move on to my feelings on the Hybrid Attributes.

 

Firstly, for those who don’t know my general VHL opinions I do not like the whole depreciation thing, yes, I understand the idea of it and why it is required. I don’t like the idea that the best strategy is to bank your points for when you need to counter your depreciation. This makes it tough for me to keep interested in completing point tasks because the work that I am doing has no change to my player I am no longer doing work to improve myself but rather to keep my head above water.

 

Now with this out of the way it should explain some of my rough thoughts towards the Hybrid Attributes. Once you hit 80 points in one of the attributes it now costs 5 TPE to add one more point. For example, the Offensive Vision attribute increases the STHS attribute by .3 for each Passing and Scoring this means that there is a chance that you can apply 15 TPE into one attribute and not improve yourself at all. I know this is not guaranteed to happen but the fact it is a possibility is what angers me. So, you go through your whole career with occasionally having weeks where you do all your TPE and nothing changes, it is not even like it is a late in the career issue, I am at this point currently and I have 500 TPE. Yes, I know what you are thinking that I have a strange build and if I built normally this wouldn’t have been an issue.

 

This takes me to my second point that due to the way the attributes are paired up there are certain builds that are extremely hard to pull off. With Gustav Mattias I was trying to build a player that was a sniper but had nothing on the back half of the ice. Essentially was an offensive powerhouse who was a giant liability on defence. Well, if I want to update my Puck Handling or Strength more I need to put points into Defence or Face Offs. Now I will do this as I need to, but I wish that I could try my build without being forced to waste TPE on stuff I don’t need.

 

Honestly this is my second player with hybrid attributes and I am already thinking about retirement and I haven’t even finished my first season in the VHL. If Bana is reading this don’t worry mate, I will stick it out for you. I am strongly thinking of going back to a Goaler next player as I wanted to just be able to go back to no matter what if I cap for the week my player will get stronger.

 

My final point in the disagreement with Hybrid Attributes is how little this changes anything in regards to the VHLM. A skater with 72 TPA is less TPA in STHS than what you use to start with before the change with 29 STHS TPA, and a skater with 160 TPA in Hybrid their STHS TPA is only 67.

 

So what does everyone else think, is Hybrid a good change or would you rather the Meta Era again

[OrbitingDeath 2,939]

I'm with you in not liking the system and really want to go goalie next (but @Lemorse7 has the final say due to the charity auction), i just dont like it's limitations and setup and it already made me consider early retirement multiple times. 

I don't have an immediate solution either I could pitch, but want you to know you are not alone in this.

[Daniel Janser 1,983]

I was not happy when it was introduced either as my player got basically chopped in half. However, Beks explained to me that the Hybrid system was addressing two issues at once: First the notorious meta plague (which is well known) but also a skill issue. Apparently STHS was never meant to deal with so many 99 attributes as were floating around in the pre-hybrid era and therefore the latter were borderline breaking the sim engine (or so I understood).

 

While I understand ones frustration about the implied need to bank TPE from season 6/7 onwards to maintain level, I wish to point out that this is what RL ageing athletes have to do as well. They work out to maintain level and will not improve any further.

 

I would advocate for a designated 4th depreciation fighter for those who need it (i.e. 9 season VHL-ers) to lessen the blow for the final season.

[Beketov 8,646]

The hybrids are not perfect but that hardly means they aren’t the best solution available to us. I’m sorry if that means you can’t build a 650 TPA meta player by season 3 who’s build can be maintained his entire career without any depreciation dips but that’s ultimately a good thing for the league as those types of players, and even more so once it became that EVERYONE was doing them, are profoundly broken.

 

Could the ratios or depreciation be tweaked? Yeah probably, we can look at the numbers, but if your end goal is to send us back to meta attributes it’s not going to happen. I understand the frustration of dumping your weekly TPE and seeing nothing move, I don’t like it either, but the reality is that it’s the best course of action to keep the engine behaving as best as it can.

Our other realistic options were basically harsh caps on attributes and imposing “max differentials” between stuff like scoring and passing. You could argue that’s what we got anyway because it basically is but without the “I can’t let you do that Dave” kinda dialog. Maybe it’s just me but I’d prefer to know I did something, even if nothing moved, rather than just being told I can’t until I put points into an unrelated thing. What we could do is have the update tool show the real number instead of just the whole numbers so at least you can see progress but I’m not sure that’ll help.

 

At the end of the day I know everyone wants to dominate with the minimal effort and facing depreciation and high TPE costs sucks, it sucks for those making the decisions too, but I would argue most people joined when the league was riding its peak of “too easy” and expect that’s how things should go and they probably shouldn’t. A top tier generational talent should be difficult to make. Thompson’s 650 TPA build was able to be maintained for his entire career easily and he dominated the league for most of his career. Yes it was fun but it was also profoundly broken and broken should never be the end goal.

2 hours ago, Berocka said:

Well, if I want to update my Puck Handling or Strength more I need to put points into Defence or Face Offs. Now I will do this as I need to, but I wish that I could try my build without being forced to waste TPE on stuff I don’t need.

I would also like to just touch on this quickly as a direct thing. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t look at those as “well I guess I’m forced to work on this.” I look at them as just freebies. If I’m adding the puck handling that’s all I realistically care about there, I’m not really caring about the strength but I’ll take some strength since it’s given anyway, free points.

 

Passing is really the only exception but it’s also the most vital reason for them all to exist as we all know.

[Daniel Janser 1,983]

57 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Passing is really the only exception but it’s also the most vital reason for them all to exist as we all know.

Speed, Leadership and Fighting are also 'single-use' hybrid attributes (just added for the sake of order as most people will not invest in LS and Fighting anyway)...

[Beketov 8,646]

4 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

Speed, Leadership and Fighting are also 'single-use' hybrid attributes (just added for the sake of order as most people will not invest in LS and Fighting anyway)...

Not what I meant but yes.

 

I meant passing is the only thing that I look at as a “well I guess I need to take this too” instead of a freebie because passing is a detriment to some builds.

[JCarson 590]

Article Review:  Articles of this nature generally get a lot of attention from the Commissioners and players who have experienced both sides of the build structure.  So if I separate the content, from the article mechanics themselves I would have to suggest that this is a reasonably well written article.  The author uses a catchy title that is relevant to their topic, expresses their idea, provides an argument to support their opinion and then concluded their article.  Whether I agree or not, whether those who made the change in the league agree or not doesn't change the fact this author wrote a solid media spot.

 

I give it a 9/10.  Keep writing.

[Berocka 2,196]

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

The hybrids are not perfect but that hardly means they aren’t the best solution available to us. I’m sorry if that means you can’t build a 650 TPA meta player by season 3 who’s build can be maintained his entire career without any depreciation dips but that’s ultimately a good thing for the league as those types of players, and even more so once it became that EVERYONE was doing them, are profoundly broken

Yes I agree with this that it is the best solution. No I was not saying I want to make a meta build I never did it when it was a thing and I wouldn't ever play the simulator to ruin the fun of others.

 

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

but if your end goal is to send us back to meta attributes it’s not going to happen

This is not my end goal my final line in my article was a tongue in cheek extreme to get people talking.

 

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

I look at them as just freebies.

Yeah I understand if you they help your player but there are some that sucks. Like if you are a defender and put points into faceoffs for the strength the wasted points for faceoffs really feel like a waste.

 

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

I know everyone wants to dominate with the minimal effort and facing depreciation and high TPE costs sucks

It's not about wanting to dominate at all every single one of my players have been mediocre at best I think in my 26 seasons (which I know isn't as much as others here) I have won one individual award. It's about feeling some sort of progression, it's about putting in work every week for no perceivable change. 

 

 

In essence I'm not saying it's a broken system and I'm butthurt that I'm not the world's greatest player whilst only doing welfare and practice facility. I am saying that I find at the moment hybrid has given less build flexibility in my opinion whilst making my TPE mean less

[Daniel Janser 1,983]

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

Not what I meant but yes.

 

I meant passing is the only thing that I look at as a “well I guess I need to take this too” instead of a freebie because passing is a detriment to some builds.

oh now I get it, mea culpa.

[Gustav 6,124]

Yeah if you go back and read that BoG thread you’ll find that I was pretty against it. It’s complicated and actual improvement is slow. 
 

It’s at least worked and it gets me much less annoyed than watching whole teams following some stupid cheap way out and then bragging about it. But I do wish that never happened in the first place. 

[Beketov 8,646]

10 minutes ago, Gustav said:

I do wish that never happened in the first place. 

Don’t we all, would have been far preferable to having to do any kind of major re-work like this.

 

We definitely could look at tuning the update scale down so that at least you aren’t needing to spend 5+ TPE to get 0.3 (technically it’s like 0.6 but given that you are usually aiming for only 1 of the attributes I get it) but update scale changes are very finicky and it’s easy to go too far the other way and it becomes far too cheap and easy to be dominant and hold that top tier endlessly.

[eagle_3450 278]

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Don’t we all, would have been far preferable to having to do any kind of major re-work like this.

 

We definitely could look at tuning the update scale down so that at least you aren’t needing to spend 5+ TPE to get 0.3 (technically it’s like 0.6 but given that you are usually aiming for only 1 of the attributes I get it) but update scale changes are very finicky and it’s easy to go too far the other way and it becomes far too cheap and easy to be dominant and hold that top tier endlessly.

The only change I'd think of for making that cheaper is by dropping it to 4 TPE, and even then it could be too much, I enjoy hybrid attributes, just like you said, a generational talent should be difficult to make. The league's scoring has been far more realistic since the implementation of hybrid attributes (ignore the VHLM), and I disagree with Berocka that it lowers build flexibility as if you actually look at the VHL nowadays, there are so many more nuanced builds with different focuses instead of only 2 or 3 like there were back in the Meta-Era. I also hated them initially, but have come to like them more because of the realism factor and the fact that there is now a significant and realistic gap between a HOFer and a normal player, instead of the gap being 150 points per season Vs 120 points per season.

[Banackock 7,649]

Solved a problem by creating a problem  

 

Sure there isn’t the meta build anymore, but is there still a common build strategy? Are most players still the same? I also think some of the ratios are a bit odd. ST might be a tad overpowered, harder to raise others like DF at times. Fuck FG. 

[Beketov 8,646]

12 minutes ago, Banackock said:

Sure there isn’t the meta build anymore, but is there still a common build strategy?

People will always min/max and find the “most optimal” build; that can’t be avoided and there’s really no reason to try. All we can really do is make it so that the most optimal build doesn’t literally break the engine.

[Daniel Janser 1,983]

15 minutes ago, Banackock said:

Solved a problem by creating a problem  

 

Sure there isn’t the meta build anymore, but is there still a common build strategy? Are most players still the same? I also think some of the ratios are a bit odd. ST might be a tad overpowered, harder to raise others like DF at times. Fuck FG. 

Well to be fair as long as the sim engine is still the same and predominantly relies on SC, PH, SK and Defence for the outcome of the sims, competitive players will inevitably have a similar build. Even if we were to switch engines, that would be the case in a jiffy UNLESS the powers to be let us user in the dark which attributes do exactly what in the engine and let us guess for 3-4 careers until we find out on ourselves. Rinse and repeat.

[Lemorse7 899]

5 hours ago, OrbitingDeath said:

I'm with you in not liking the system and really want to go goalie next (but @Lemorse7 has the final say due to the charity auction), i just dont like it's limitations and setup and it already made me consider early retirement multiple times. 

I don't have an immediate solution either I could pitch, but want you to know you are not alone in this.

I have the power

[jacobcarson877 2,072]

I made probably as meta of a player as possible and still wasn't the unanimous greatest player, and I love that! I also mourn it, but I love it nonetheless.

I think the real issue is that there's so little of the simulator that actually does anything. So when you eliminate all of the attributes that are "freebies" you're stuck upgrading some combination of the same 4-6 attributes.

One final thing I've come to realize is that build is probably something like 30% of the equation. Relative skill over teammates/opponents, strength of teammates/opponents, ice time, strategies, all of that I would estimate makes up 70+% of the picture, so at the end of the day, we're all up to the whims of Simon anyways, regardless of what we build.

[KRZY 415]

I deeply contemplated retirement myself the last 2 seasons because of these exact things ( I didn’t tho because of my player’s success late in his career and the success of the Stars the past couple seasons ) if it wasn’t for those 2 factors I probably would’ve pulled the plug

[Grape 528]

Growth is slow and makes it a real challenge to actually have improvement, especially in the later stages of a player's career, especially due to the TPE:Stat Increase ratio. It was a good plan to kill the meta, but now, especially paired with depreciation, the last few seasons are practically unbearable and it's almost worth it to just retire early and see your work actually have improvement than to watch as you max earn week after week only to do a single upgrade. Either ratios need to be tweaked or costs need to be reduced.

[Beketov 8,646]

1 hour ago, Grape said:

Either ratios need to be tweaked or costs need to be reduced.

I mean technically there is the third option. Absolutely nowhere does it say you have to play a full career, you can retire whenever you want. It's only a relatively recent development that people decided to always go full 8 / 9 season careers. It actually used to be incentivized in the recreation percentages to retire earlier with 6th season being the peak.

 

I'm not saying that's necessarily a great option or that we can't look at any tweaks but if you aren't enjoying something you don't HAVE to drag yourself through it.

[Enorama 1,980]

My thoughts can basically be summed up on a flow chart.

 

Do you think allowing the meta builds was sustainable and healthy? If yes, we change nothing. If no, you have four options.

 

1. Change the sim engine -> no real other options available with the import/export options STHS has.

2. Put different update scales for certain attributes -> this would make it glaringly obvious which attributes are just better and would lead to the same problem you see now of not getting any improvement in a full week of earning, but even a step worse because you don't even get to click the button.

3. Institute limits on gaps -> Definitely an option but once again would make it clear that SC > PA is just better, people hate seeing things locked, and the same concept can be effectively enforced by option 4.

4. Hybrid attribute system -> Can essentially accomplish 2 & 3 in the same go but doing it in almost a hidden way, which can be seen as both a positive and a negative. Some of the same downsides as both 2 & 3 of course.

[Spade18 1,302]

6 hours ago, Daniel Janser said:

Speed, Leadership and Fighting are also 'single-use' hybrid attributes (just added for the sake of order as most people will not invest in LS and Fighting anyway)...

 

I tried to make an unironically leadership and fighting focused guy as my last player.  My current face off specialist player is fighting more than he did =[

[v.2 1,260]

At the end of the day the biggest issue will always be Simon's simulator.  Until (and if ever) we find a proper engine to jump to these arguments will always continue and go in circles.  I think the stupidest and most misleading thing to newer members is that Leadership and Discipline are virtually useless, yet still there and still upgradeable.  Just always going to remain confusing with most users gearing toward a "meta" in the most cost effective way possible.

[Enorama 1,980]

30 minutes ago, v.2 said:

that Leadership and Discipline are virtually useless

 

I will not stand for this Discipline slander, don't lump it in with Leadership

[Garsh 1,083]

Personally, I've been happy with the hybrid system, and I believe  all of my best seasons have come under it.