Are Modern Defensemen Better Than VHL Legends?

[Alex 3,248]

After my article last week, and some further discussions, I came to the conclusion that there is a simple and objective way to rank defensemen across eras. It is simply to consider them all equal, while early season players did produce more (especially early in their career), there was less awards for defensemen at that time (it did also used to be more common for players to win 2-4 Labattes in a row and there were other awards that don’t exist anymore). With that being said, I decided to test this with the top 50 defensemen based off scoring, here’s what I found:

 

For career statistics I made the decision to use the same scoring as fantasy, which for defensemen is 3 points for a goal, 1.5 for a assist, 0.3 for a hit and shot blocked, and 0.2 for +/-. There was a couple interesting surprises here, as Hard Markinson @stz came in the number one spot, Brian Payne slotted in the number 3 spot thanks to having the most hits of every player assessed, lastly Sterling Labatte ended up 6^th, specifically due to their relatively poor defensive stats.

Statistical Leaders:

1.      Hard Markinson @STZ

2.      Skor McFleury @Alex

3.      Brian Payne @Scurvy

4.      Alexander Valiq @Koradek

5.      Japinder Singh @8Ovechkin8

6.      Sterling Labatte @sterling

7.      Daniel Braxton @Jericho

8.      Jake Thunder @Thunder

9.      Condor Adrienne @OrbitingDeath

10. Battre Sandstrom @Acydburn

 

 

The other thing I had to consider was award wins and Continental Cups, this was the part that I struggled with scoring in this system. Eventually I settled on 100 points for a cup and 50 points for an individual award. This saw a couple players gain a lot of points and propel themselves up the rankings, specifically Condor Adrienne, who was 9^th statistically, but had a cup and 12 individual awards in their career. They were followed by Sterling Labatte and Phil Hampton.

Cup/Award Leaders:

1.      Condor Adrienne @OrbitingDeath

2.      Sterling Labatte @sterling

3.      Phil Hamilton @Phil

4.      Skor McFleury @Alex

5.      Jochen Walser

6.      Hari Singh Nalwa @Dil

7.      Elijah Incognito @Strummer

8.      Ryan Sullivan @Advantage

9.      Matt Bentley @Victor

10. Japinder Singh @8Ovechkin8

 

Overall, we had one interesting thing show up, players from before S59 (when defensemen awards expanded to include the Wylde) made up exactly half of the top 10 defensmen. The most notable thing here was that Ryan Sullivan, the player who was the number one defensemen in VSN’s top 75 ends up 10^th here and behind all of Sterling Labatte, Phil Hamilton, Japinder Singh, and Daniel Braxton, all of whom were included in and ranked below Sullivan in the top 75. The top 10 defensemen based on this scoring are:

1.      Sterling Labatte @sterling

2.      Condor Adrienne @OrbitingDeath

3.      Skor McFleury @Alex

4.      Phil Hamilton @Phil

5.      Hard Markinson @STZ

6.      Japinder Singh @8Ovechkin8

7.      Brian Payne @Scurvy

8.      Daniel Braxton @Jericho

9.      Jake Thunder @Thunder

10. Ryan Sullivan @Advantage

Honourable mentions: Pierre Emile Boucard @Gaikoku-hito (11^th), Hari Singh Nalwa @Dil (14^th), Alexander Valiq (15^th), Fabio Jokinen @jRuutu (17^th), Tui Sova @v.2 (18^th),
Battre Sandstrom @Acydburn (19^th), Jake Wylde @STZ (21^st)

 

I did have a few takeaways/questions I was left with after this experiment; 1) I do think the scoring used was fair, and seems to balance out across eras, 2) I do think that there’s an argument to be made that defensemen since S75 are some of the best the VHL has ever seen, and likely get ranked lower due to the legacy of those older players (like Valiq), 3) Players from earlier seasons typically won more awards, 4) Lastly, one thing I noticed is that the bar for getting in the HOF seems to have been way lower in the early seasons. Anyways, thank you for reading my rambling.

 

585 words

[Victor 11,021]

Why do you always ignore Conner Low though? 

[Daniel Janser 2,216]

18 minutes ago, Victor said:

Why do you always ignore Conner Low though? 

He probably ranked LOWer ... I would apologize for the obvious and bad pun, but I am a dad and according to the unwritten rules of the worldwide dad-association, I am allowed a bad pun every now and then...

[Gaikoku-hito 2,134]

Very interesting read!!

 

I actually liked the fact that you used fantasy point system for part of this discussion and also used a point system similar to what we discussed; and I failed to accomplish myself. Also nice to see that Skor did finish within the top 5 as I had projected him. Also thanks for adding PEB at the end as I was wondering where he would place. I had him top 20ish so the fact that he was 11th is nice bonus!!

 

Mad respect for these types of articles as they are not easy to come up with a point system that works and all the research that goes into these!!

[Gaikoku-hito 2,134]

1 hour ago, Victor said:

Why do you always ignore Conner Low though? 

His stats are messed up in the: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ch-_25_iv7NFHbHbfjKjSo01MyMWClQEfh0nlfvnw38/edit?gid=1174103165#gid=1174103165

 

As it states he only played 360 games compared to the players page in the portal at 576.

Based on the portal yes; he should have been included by I think & @Alex can confirm the spreadsheet above was used so Low doesn`t look that impressive.

So which one is right?

Portal or Spreadsheet?

 

[Alex 3,248]

1 hour ago, Victor said:

Why do you always ignore Conner Low though? 

He was initially left out due to him being 127th in defensemen scoring, for the sake of argument I added him in and he comes out at  50th statistically (only ahead of joey Kendrick), 1st for awards (tied with Adrienne), and 21st  overall.

 

20 minutes ago, Gaikoku-hito said:

His stats are messed up in the: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ch-_25_iv7NFHbHbfjKjSo01MyMWClQEfh0nlfvnw38/edit?gid=1174103165#gid=1174103165

 

As it states he only played 360 games compared to the players page in the portal at 576.

Based on the portal yes; he should have been included by I think & @Alex can confirm the spreadsheet above was used so Low doesn`t look that impressive.

So which one is right?

Portal or Spreadsheet?

 

Those stats are just his defensemen numbers, not career total. which is kind of odd given that others who position swapped have their career totals

 

[Victor 11,021]

1 hour ago, Gaikoku-hito said:

As it states he only played 360 games compared to the players page in the portal at 576.

576 is wrong because he played 7 seasons, not 8 (but S36 gets double counted in the portal).

360 is because he switched to forward after 5 seasons.

 

43 minutes ago, Alex said:

He was initially left out due to him being 127th in defensemen scoring, for the sake of argument I added him in and he comes out at  50th statistically (only ahead of joey Kendrick), 1st for awards (tied with Adrienne), and 21st  overall.

 

Best point per game of any defenceman ever though and 5 Labattes out of 5.

[Alex 3,248]

14 minutes ago, Victor said:

Best point per game of any defenceman ever though and 5 Labattes out of 5.

I'm not saying he isn't a top 10 defensemen, but rather that strictly based off career totals and awards he is 21st, even if you given them a +200 point boost for points per game they are only 11th. They may very well be a top 10 player in VHL history, but their shortened time as a defensemen does minimize the argument that they are the best defensemen. If they played out their career as a defensemen they are probably 1st, but given that they only played 5 seasons in the position and their statistical totals are nowhere near the top, I really can't see the argument. Were they one of the most dominant defensemen ever, yes, but strictly from a statistical and award based standpoint they aren't near the best.

Edited November 24 by Alex

[Ahma 1,444]

Labatte is goddamn GOAT defenseman!

 

Started reading this thinking "Labatte's gonna top it" and yeah, he pretty much does. 

[Victor 11,021]

8 minutes ago, Alex said:

Were they one of the most dominant defensemen ever, yes, but strictly from a statistical and award based standpoint they aren't near the best.

Your weighting is off if the defencemen who was crowned the best defenceman more often than any other defenceman ever is anything other than top 3 all time.

[Alex 3,248]

2 minutes ago, Victor said:

Your weighting is off if the defencemen who was crowned the best defenceman more often than any other defenceman ever is anything other than top 3 all time.

We may have to agree to disagree here, their total stats as a defensemen are nowhere near the top, and while winning a lot of awards does make a difference. Even if you assume that the modern awards existed at the time and they won all three each season (which by modern standards and a quick look at the indexes they wouldn't have) they end up 5th.

[Victor 11,021]

Just now, Alex said:

We may have to agree to disagree here, their total stats as a defensemen are nowhere near the top, and while winning a lot of awards does make a difference. Even if you assume that the modern awards existed at the time and they won all three each season (which by modern standards and a quick look at the indexes they wouldn't have) they end up 5th.

Well then you have to apply stats per game or something.

[Alex 3,248]

21 minutes ago, Victor said:

Well then you have to apply stats per game or something.

This would kind of just be grasping at straws, and would likely open the can of worms that is further era adjustment which would be way to over complicated, as while league scoring is slightly up now, the conditions present in the earlier seasons favoured high earning players to produce at levels much higher than today. If I had the time to actually work out that formula you would likely see every early player's ranking plummet. When strictly looking at defensemen, Low just really isn't there, while they were one of the most dominant players ever, the shortened time frame causes their ranking to drop, they do create an argument that is interesting, but it relies solely on legacy and 'What-ifs'.

 

Edited November 24 by Alex

[Victor 11,021]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

This would kind of just be grasping at straws, and would likely open the can of worms that is further era adjustment which would be way to over complicated, as while league scoring is slightly up now, the conditions present in the earlier seasons favoured high earning players to produce at levels much higher than today. If I had the time to actually work out that formula you would likely see every early player's ranking plummet.

Grasping at straws is devising arbitrary rankings which favour current players. e.g. shots blocked has been up in the 16-team league

 

Much like counting Wyldes on par with Labattes when Wyldes are regularly won by one-season wonders and not necessarily the best defenceman.

 

It's fundamentally nonsense to rank defencemen and disregard someone who was the best at it for 5 straight seasons and the only seasons he was eligible. It's also a fallacy to suggest that players had it easier in their early years. The Labatte has been won by a rookie or sophomore 5 times ever. 2 of those were Low. 1 was in the "modern" era.

 

This seems a useful enough exercise overall (even if you're obviously trying to improve McFleury's legacy which is fine, we've all be there) but it's 1 - Labatte and 2 - Low and the rest can fight it out for 3rd.

[Alex 3,248]

20 minutes ago, Victor said:

Much like counting Wyldes on par with Labattes when Wyldes are regularly won by one-season wonders and not necessarily the best defenceman.

 

Decided to see where I could go with this and decided to start re-doing it with Labattes and MVPs weighted heavier than other awards, and with a increased weighting to benefit Low (Labatte/MVP - 75, Wylde, Valiq, Leadership, etc... - 50, Funk/ROTY - 35), this saw Low rise slightly, but they are still a ways behind the top end of the board. Again, the main issue with Low isn't their awards, it's strictly their totals as a defensemen are NOT CLOSE to the top end of the board, I'm not saying they don't deserve to be in the conversation. Even if you assume that they would have won the Valiq and Wylde every season, which again they wouldn't have, they end up 4th. I'm not saying that Low was a shit defensemen, just that their statistical totals as a defensemen tarnish any bid to be considered the best defensemen in VHL history. They are however, probably still a top 10 player in VHL history and can be considered the most dominant defensemen ever. 

 

I started doing this exercise strictly to try and figure out an objective way to rank players, that removes any bias due to legacy and/or impact. I tried to make the scoring as reasonable as possible, IF you reduce the SB factor to 0.2 (from 0.3), older players do improve slightly, but there's no movement in the top 5, Low goes up to 14th.

[Smarch 3,194]

I win this topic cause @Victor said nice things about me.

[Victor 11,021]

39 minutes ago, Smarch said:

I win this topic cause @Victor said nice things about me.

Low bullied for Bentley for so long I refuse to let him be forgotten.

 

#JusticeForLow

[Corco 1,265]

19 hours ago, Alex said:

4) Lastly, one thing I noticed is that the bar for getting in the HOF seems to have been way lower in the early seasons. Anyways, thank you for reading my rambling.

This is very likely due to the smaller player pool at the time, especially in the very early seasons (pre-S15). Petr Shirokov is the most egregious example I can think of off the top of my head. 

[Spartan 4,531]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

This would kind of just be grasping at straws, and would likely open the can of worms that is further era adjustment which would be way to over complicated

Well if you're going to compare stats across eras you've already opened and consequently ignored era adjustment no? How are you going to fairly compare players who dominated in the meta era to players in eras where scoring was much lower? Your title is even comparing modern defensemen to legends but you don't adjust for era differences.

[Alex 3,248]

2 hours ago, Spartan said:

Well if you're going to compare stats across eras you've already opened and consequently ignored era adjustment no? How are you going to fairly compare players who dominated in the meta era to players in eras where scoring was much lower? Your title is even comparing modern defensemen to legends but you don't adjust for era differences.

Ironically no pure meta players outside of Nalwa even cracked the list to begin with. I went back and forth on how to approach era adjustment if I wanted to go that route and came to the conclusion that it’s minimal if anything. Since while scoring was up in the late 70’s/early 80’s for example, in the early seasons high earning players would produce at levels higher than today, despite lower league wide scoring. Essentially came to the conclusion that each era has its pros and cons, and overall they kind of balance out.

Edited November 25 by Alex

[Advantage 2,899]

10 hours ago, Smarch said:

I win this topic cause @Victor said nice things about me.

I think I was more surprised it wasn’t me making the argument for you   

 

Low’s the absolute best.  
 

Also…

 

Sullivan > Labatte + Braxton

Edited November 25 by Advantage

[BOOM 8,817]

25 minutes ago, Advantage said:

Sullivan > Labatte + Braxton

 

Jericho will be pissed!

[Advantage 2,899]

6 minutes ago, BOOM said:

 

Jericho will be pissed!

He knows it’s true. 

[Spartan 4,531]

3 hours ago, Alex said:

Essentially came to the conclusion that each era has its pros and cons, and overall they kind of balance out.

Well not if you're applying fantasy scoring that prioritizes different things

[OrbitingDeath 3,229]

TL;DR - Position swapping is bad and messes up historic lists.