Welfare/pension ruins the league

[Baozi 1,658]

Just now, jRuutu said:

I agree that it´s much better to have a real person here instead group of bots, but there should be even bigger difference between welfare/pension and ´active´ players than there is now. 

 

There is +20 players on welfare/pension on most of the weeks and in my opinion it absolutely brings down the league.

 

How about you can only do welfare/pension once every two weeks?I mean something has to be done. 

 

 

I'd say there is already a pretty big difference between pension based players and those with fully active players thats why I never thought of it as a real issue. There are very few players that go only pension through their entire career and can make large impacts. There simply isn't that much TPE even at +5 a week.

[jRuutu 2,464]

Just now, tfong said:

 

I'd say there is already a pretty big difference between pension based players and those with fully active players thats why I never thought of it as a real issue. There are very few players that go only pension through their entire career and can make large impacts. There simply isn't that much TPE even at +5 a week.

The difference still should be higher. I´m sure nobody goes welfare or pension all the time, but there should be a massive difference between a guy who does those media spots or graphics every week and a pension player.

 

oh and what about the carry over tpe thing? Isnt that already a nice little bonus when you are recreating?  

[Baozi 1,658]

6 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

The difference still should be higher. I´m sure nobody goes welfare or pension all the time, but there should be a massive difference between a guy who does those media spots or graphics every week and a pension player.

 

oh and what about the carry over tpe thing? Isnt that already a nice little bonus when you are recreating?  

 

The point of pension/welfare is to allow people to create decent players and stick around where they otherwise wouldn't because busy or bored or w/e. You can't make the difference be like a career VHLMer to a HOF VHL player big. That would defeat the purpose. Have you looked at some of the welfare only players even? Like Diamond Ace's player is mostly Welfare points and the difference between him and Phil is already pretty large. You want to increase the gap?

 

Like what kind of players are you looking at that you think the gap needs to be wider?

 

Carryover is nothing, its like 50-70 TPE. Most players can't break into the VHL with sub 300 points anyways and be impact players.

Edited March 27, 2016 by tfong

[jRuutu 2,464]

Just now, tfong said:

 

The point of pension/welfare is to allow people to create decent players and stick around where they otherwise wouldn't because busy or bored or w/e. You can't make the difference be like a career VHLMer to a HOF VHL player big. That would defeat the purpose. Have you looked at some of the welfare only players even? Like Diamond Ace's player is mostly Welfare points and the difference between him and Phil is already pretty large. You want to increase the gap?

 

Like what kind of players are you looking at that you think the gap needs to be wider?

I´m not looking at any players, I´m just looking at the total number of players who use the welfare/pension each week and hoping something happens that makes that number smaller.  Shouldn´t  the league do everything they can to promote activity? Isnt that the whole point? How things are set right now, they are not promoting activity that much.

 

The difference between Phil and Diamond ace is big and yes, I want to make that difference bigger. Phil is not a ´normal´ user here though so comparing him to diamond is not that fair.

[jRuutu 2,464]

For example Severin Von Karma from Stockholm is a pension/welfare player and pretty good one with 750 tpe. 

[CowboyinAmerica 2,889]

11 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

For example Severin Von Karma from Stockholm is a pension/welfare player and pretty good one with 750 tpe. 

 

To be fair though that's still rewarding activity - he's been doing welfare literally every week, with a league job for a large portion of the time, and spends time getting free points like trivia. Even with two point capped welfare, he'd still be hitting 5-6 TPE per week with everything else. If anything, to me, he (or Hybrid's last goalie) are the posterchildren for how welfare should work if you're dedicated but don't want to do weekly PTs - enough to be a solid player in the league if you do everything else, but you're not going to see von Karma in the MVP race any time soon with regression hitting. I think we're going to agree to disagree on how big the gap should be.

[jRuutu 2,464]

3 minutes ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

To be fair though that's still rewarding activity - he's been doing welfare literally every week, with a league job for a large portion of the time, and spends time getting free points like trivia. Even with two point capped welfare, he'd still be hitting 5-6 TPE per week with everything else. If anything, to me, he (or Hybrid's last goalie) are the posterchildren for how welfare should work if you're dedicated but don't want to do weekly PTs - enough to be a solid player in the league if you do everything else, but you're not going to see von Karma in the MVP race any time soon with regression hitting. I think we're going to agree to disagree on how big the gap should be.

Absolutely, but with 750 tpe he is still a elite player in the league. Even when the regression hits he will be useful player. There is quite few teams who have not so great options for first two lines.

 

Perhaps the easiest solution is to increase the payout for media spots and graphics.Promote activity and reward the players who do those media spots/graphics even more than now. 

 

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

Look at the career i had with O'Malley.  Those who put in the work, will get the rewards. No welfare player will get his career awards and points. Quote me on that. There is no problem.

[Bojo 221]

As someone who isn't expecting to be a big name player on welfare I like the system. Allows me a chance to contribute even if it's at a slower pace. 

[JardyB10 4,865]

4 hours ago, flyersfan1493 said:

 

I also think it's safe to say that the VHL wouldn't be here without welfare.

That is such an alarming statement that I'm now sad.

 

Anyway, my two cents is that I've never been a fan of Welfare. I didn't advocate for it at all at the time of its implementation. I'm pretty old school, but I feel the what separates the VHL from other sim leagues (particularly the SHL) is the culture. And to me, that culture is that, if you want to succeed, you have to "work" for it. Before welfare was implemented, what separated the elite players and the mediocre ones was activity. By that I mean, there was three types of members (as there are today, really): Actives, Semi-actives, and Inactives, the last of which isn't really a member anymore. Active members were the ones with the great players, who, even if they didn't win a bunch of awards, were most valued to any team wanting to win a Cup. Semi-actives were the guys who would do PTs in spurts. They'd do a month of PTs, then maybe drop off for a while, then come back, etc.

 

Compared to the SHL, which was (is?) mostly a non-PT league, where members could show up, shit post, and kind of enter the "useful player" lottery. Which works, because they were able to draw a shit ton of members that way.

 

So when we were coming up with the Welfare thing, it was initially a draw to get some of those SHL-type members who kind of just want to show up and shit post and have a decent player. Pension was just an extension of that idea.

 

And ultimately, it seems to have worked pretty much just as planned. The difference between now and then is that instead of having "semi-actives" we have welfare people.

 

So while I'm not a huge fan of changes that make the league more lazy such as welfare and non-graded PTs (never mind the two being in conjunction now), I can't deny that they've worked out for the better. At least welfare anyway, but I'm assuming the PTs too. And for better or worse, the VHL isn't the same league as it was 6 years ago. (Speaking of which, I just realized I've been here for exactly 6 years and a week :x ) You're right, I don't think writing a MS is that hard (though maybe I shouldn't talk since I haven't written one in years). I just wrote half of one here about how I feel about welfare. But it's too late to go back now.

 

My concern now is people who log in but don't post, other than welfare and updates. I mean, they have their players, and that's good, but it does almost seem "wrong" that we have pension for formerly dedicated members, but you could reasonably reach pension status just from being a silent welfare user. I dunno, it's all fucked up.

 

Anywho, TL;DR: I don't like welfare, but it works and it's good for the league now.

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

Look at the shl now, i feel that is the league you need to work harder in, even when i was at full activity here. Just look at the point scale there.

[Munk 1,298]

1 hour ago, Green said:

Look at the career i had with O'Malley.  Those who put in the work, will get the rewards. No welfare player will get his career awards and points. Quote me on that. There is no problem.

 

Unless you're me

 

#humblebrag

[Smarch 3,150]

Thank you to @jRuutu for starting this discussion tho. These threads make the league more active and even if we don't see eye to eye, much respect for speaking up

[Kesler 1,514]

Because mother fucker I dont have time to do a pt and I put my hard work in w my other players SO I could claim 5tpe a week now.

[Devise 4,475]

Another big element and an extension of the keeping members argument is the benefit it has had on parity. Helsinki was the first team to repeat in like 20 seasons. Every franchise has enjoyed the success of a Cup or a finals run in the last 10-15 seasons. Welfare is a huge reason why, as the help those players can be in our salary cap era is huge.

 

I know for me personally I recall Ron World Peace @stevo was primarily welfare yet he brought so much to our LR was able to contribute as a player and is a perfect example of welfare system working as intended. More active LR with welfare active depth guys vs pure inactives is simply a huge plus.

[Da Trifecta 1,896]

Just because a player is on welfare doesn't mean they won't bring discussion. There had been periods of time where I would just do no PT and at one point it was for the better part of a month. I was still in the game threads and the locker rooms. The players who have worked their asses off should be rewarded with the chance for 4 TPE. That would be the basic 2 TPE for welfare and 1 TPE per 400 TPE player they have created. Some players like myself included have had players with more then 600 TPE numerous times and would love to just relax for a bit. There has been times where I have considered just going with a straight welfare player. I have earned the right to that 400 TPE because I have had players with 684 TPE and 800 (or 799 if you are Kendrick). The fact of the matter is that a welfare player doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't promoting activity. They could actually be really busy in real life but yet still post in locker rooms and other areas. I know for one that even if I did constant welfare, I would still be around to discuss things. This is a great community of people to talk with and most of the time create nice discussions or even heated ones. I do agree that those who take the time out to actually do a PT whether it be a graphic, media spot or even a podcast should get more. Maybe something like 7 TPE for their efforts of doing more work. That separates them from the welfare people who at max get 5 with a contract. That is a 2 TPE difference still each season for how ever many seasons they play in. That can equate to roughly 300-400 more TPE in a full eight season career.

 

My two cents has been given in the fact that welfare doesn't always equal inactivity. You could write 500 words still in a matter of like 10 mins then never sign on to the site for the rest of the week until the new week starts. Does that mean they are active just because they came on and wrote 500 words? Just remember that not everyone can see in every single locker room and we don't know what goes on. Someone could be a career welfare person with their player yet have a job as an updater or grader and still post in the locker room. Would we know about that? No. Why? Because we don't have access to all that. Even those with access to that wouldn't waste their time checking.

[Bojo 221]

All I know is I probably wouldn't have come back if welfare wasn't a thing. My weekly routine is most likely the Practice (good way to get involved), VHL Radio (easy weekly task), and the welfare. I think the welfare helps give just enough to be competitive, but definitely at a disadvantage. 

[Kendrick 4,741]

If you get rid of welfare, I'd get 0 TPE per week.

[jRuutu 2,464]

12 hours ago, Green said:

Look at the career i had with O'Malley.  Those who put in the work, will get the rewards. No welfare player will get his career awards and points. Quote me on that. There is no problem.

There is only one O´Malley though    

 

11 hours ago, Green said:

Look at the shl now, i feel that is the league you need to work harder in, even when i was at full activity here. Just look at the point scale there.

I actually feel this is the league you need to work harder in   Only so much time to build your player and when you are getting close to a really good players status, it´s only few more years to retirement. In shl everything takes more time so in a way it is more work, but the weekly work at least for me as a average user without any jobs is bit tougher here.

[jRuutu 2,464]

8 hours ago, Da Trifecta said:

Just because a player is on welfare doesn't mean they won't bring discussion. There had been periods of time where I would just do no PT and at one point it was for the better part of a month. I was still in the game threads and the locker rooms. The players who have worked their asses off should be rewarded with the chance for 4 TPE. That would be the basic 2 TPE for welfare and 1 TPE per 400 TPE player they have created. Some players like myself included have had players with more then 600 TPE numerous times and would love to just relax for a bit. There has been times where I have considered just going with a straight welfare player. I have earned the right to that 400 TPE because I have had players with 684 TPE and 800 (or 799 if you are Kendrick). The fact of the matter is that a welfare player doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't promoting activity. They could actually be really busy in real life but yet still post in locker rooms and other areas. I know for one that even if I did constant welfare, I would still be around to discuss things. This is a great community of people to talk with and most of the time create nice discussions or even heated ones. I do agree that those who take the time out to actually do a PT whether it be a graphic, media spot or even a podcast should get more. Maybe something like 7 TPE for their efforts of doing more work. That separates them from the welfare people who at max get 5 with a contract. That is a 2 TPE difference still each season for how ever many seasons they play in. That can equate to roughly 300-400 more TPE in a full eight season career.

 

My two cents has been given in the fact that welfare doesn't always equal inactivity. You could write 500 words still in a matter of like 10 mins then never sign on to the site for the rest of the week until the new week starts. Does that mean they are active just because they came on and wrote 500 words? Just remember that not everyone can see in every single locker room and we don't know what goes on. Someone could be a career welfare person with their player yet have a job as an updater or grader and still post in the locker room. Would we know about that? No. Why? Because we don't have access to all that. Even those with access to that wouldn't waste their time checking.

In my opinion it´s better to have a system that promotes the activity as much as possible and we all should work together to make that weekly number of users who use welfare as small as possible so some kind of bump to the media spot/graphic/ podcasts payouts could work.

 

Like you said, some welfare/pension users are really active and there really is no way to know what goes on in the locker rooms and in other areas. The longer VHL keeps on going, the more people can be a welfare/pension player. If there is not enough new people coming in, eventually there might not be that many media spots/graphics/podcasts to be graded. 

 

[jRuutu 2,464]

12 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

That is such an alarming statement that I'm now sad.

 

Anyway, my two cents is that I've never been a fan of Welfare. I didn't advocate for it at all at the time of its implementation. I'm pretty old school, but I feel the what separates the VHL from other sim leagues (particularly the SHL) is the culture. And to me, that culture is that, if you want to succeed, you have to "work" for it. Before welfare was implemented, what separated the elite players and the mediocre ones was activity. By that I mean, there was three types of members (as there are today, really): Actives, Semi-actives, and Inactives, the last of which isn't really a member anymore. Active members were the ones with the great players, who, even if they didn't win a bunch of awards, were most valued to any team wanting to win a Cup. Semi-actives were the guys who would do PTs in spurts. They'd do a month of PTs, then maybe drop off for a while, then come back, etc.

 

Compared to the SHL, which was (is?) mostly a non-PT league, where members could show up, shit post, and kind of enter the "useful player" lottery. Which works, because they were able to draw a shit ton of members that way.

 

So when we were coming up with the Welfare thing, it was initially a draw to get some of those SHL-type members who kind of just want to show up and shit post and have a decent player. Pension was just an extension of that idea.

 

And ultimately, it seems to have worked pretty much just as planned. The difference between now and then is that instead of having "semi-actives" we have welfare people.

 

So while I'm not a huge fan of changes that make the league more lazy such as welfare and non-graded PTs (never mind the two being in conjunction now), I can't deny that they've worked out for the better. At least welfare anyway, but I'm assuming the PTs too. And for better or worse, the VHL isn't the same league as it was 6 years ago. (Speaking of which, I just realized I've been here for exactly 6 years and a week :x ) You're right, I don't think writing a MS is that hard (though maybe I shouldn't talk since I haven't written one in years). I just wrote half of one here about how I feel about welfare. But it's too late to go back now.

 

My concern now is people who log in but don't post, other than welfare and updates. I mean, they have their players, and that's good, but it does almost seem "wrong" that we have pension for formerly dedicated members, but you could reasonably reach pension status just from being a silent welfare user. I dunno, it's all fucked up.

 

Anywho, TL;DR: I don't like welfare, but it works and it's good for the league now.

Congratulations on the 6 years!   

 

The league would be a better place if those formerly dedicated players would be here creating media spots, graphics,podcasts etc and leading by example. Now some of those guys are on welfare/pension and new people see them and some of them might start to wonder if it´s worth it to do all the work if there is quite few players who are already better and they have to do less work.

 

Sure some people have jobs in various areas around the VHL, but isn´t there quite few jobs that are around media spots,graphics and podcasts? Or if more people do them, more work is there to them? 

 

That welfare number could be a lot lower and if it gets lower the league is only going to win. Perhaps add a ´easier´ option than Media spot/graphics/podcasts for people who don´t have a job in the league to earn that tpe instead of just writing their name on a thread. Get those silent and not so active users more active by making them do something for that tpe. 

 

 

 

 

[jRuutu 2,464]

8 hours ago, Kendrick said:

If you get rid of welfare, I'd get 0 TPE per week.

What about your career as the roastmaster general? 

 

11 hours ago, brovy said:

Because mother fucker I dont have time to do a pt and I put my hard work in w my other players SO I could claim 5tpe a week now.

What happens if we all slowly move to do that? It´s only matter of time. 

[Victor 10,937]

I suppose it's a fair point that TPE whores used to lead by example and if you wanted to be good you needed to do the work. But while I'd like to think that there were enough dedicated members to keep this going, I just don't know if that's a feasible system as the old guard leaves and recruitment isn't great. And I think recruitment even now is better than it once was because the old bare bones PT system just wasn't appealing enough.

 

I did like some of the alternatives suggested like limiting the 1 TPE upgrade to VHL.com articles and keeping welfare at a max of 4 TPE. Maybe if you claim welfare, the following week you become eligible for 7 TPE for your PT instead of 6 as an opportunity to bounce back.

[scoop 3,426]

19 hours ago, jRuutu said:

For example Severin Von Karma from Stockholm is a pension/welfare player and pretty good one with 750 tpe. 

I don't know for sure if he still does, but he spent time as the guy who updates players in the sim each week as well, which I think may have been a 2 TPE job that probably took more time each week than it takes for most media spots/graphics that are made.

[scoop 3,426]

19 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Shouldn´t  the league do everything they can to promote activity?

But how will getting rid of pension promote activity? Green and I saying we wouldn't be here without pension isn't just us bluffing, trying to get out of doing point tasks. It's the truth. If we weaken pension too much, we'll lose members who otherwise would still be around.

 

Now, I guess if your argument is that keeping pension as is will deter new members from the league, you could maybe have a case. But I doubt that the people who are currently on welfare/pension would opt to do point tasks if the option was taken away.