Create Structure and Transparency with GM/AGM Candidates

[Advantage 2,899]

19 minutes ago, Victor said:

You can't possibly take every single comment made by a blue as the official position of everyone blue, that's ludicrous. Shall I start assuming that what every BOG member says on Discord on Friday night is every other BOG member's opinion?

Well when someone says "Thats why we didn't tell you" what am I supposed to think?

 

 

[Motzaburger 1,590]

6 hours ago, Beketov said:

Congratulations, you just killed all the hype for the largest expansion the league has ever seen by telling everyone it’s coming. That announcement got people way more excited than any of the other expansions because it wasn’t leaked in advance like every other time. I’m fine saying there’s a possibility that we should have some general community pools without giving specifics (aka just an open “where should teams be” lost that isn’t specifying anything will necessarily happen) but it’s boring if everyone knows everything all the time.

Unfortunately there isn’t really hype or build up when no one knows it’s coming (twss). 
 

Build hype by making it a small announcement a long ways away. Let people speculate, let people spread rumours and shit. Obviously some surprises are good, but in this case the whole process being a surprise is not a good look. 
 

By telling the league there is going to be an expansion does not mean “everybody knows everything”. That’s the point of hyping up the news. You give them a sliver of something and let the speculation begin and the hype to grow meanwhile you can see what people thing and gauge the idea and find ways to make it even better. 
 

The top brass have the BoG and and a dedicated community below them. This is one of the ones that should not have been a surprise imo. Now things like the donation drive and theme week are small; those are good surprises. Expansion by four teams and keeping the BoG and the community in the dark (who could all offer some valuable input from start to finish), not a good surprise.

[Victor 11,021]

18 minutes ago, Advantage said:

Well when someone says "Thats why we didn't tell you" what am I supposed to think?

 

 

Ask around? Speak to people? I dunno, anything other than "the BOG is being marginalised because Beav said so". You know that's not true, can we just be clear here that the BOG knew for weeks that expansion was happening. And you also know that the BOG has never decided every single GM appointment in the league. So, again, is there an actual problem or are you just annoyed at something Beav said?

[frescoelmo 1,282]

Deep breaths everyone... keep it real #renoelmo2020

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

So, back to the original point...I don't see how this would be helpful. At the end of the day, people would still be annoyed that they didn't get picked, even if they were on the list. I'm ASSUMING this list wouldn't be a "turn order" (which I would be even more against), so all it does is make public the potential pool of candidates. It doesn't change any of the decisions.

 

At the end of the day, people are going to be disappointed that they weren't chosen. There are only so many GM spots available, and a ton more qualified people than there are spots.  

[Banackock 8,143]

Biggest expansion ever, least involvement of BoG ever. I don’t have much of a stance but I likely lean towards open apps being nice Even if private discussions and a minor leak of “expansion is coming” with no more details. I think the hype still would of been just as real. 
 

Anyway, enjoy the Saturday. 
 

[Acydburn 1,618]

2 hours ago, Beketov said:

I can’t speak for everything but I know Beaviss has been very worried lately about how much was leaking out of the BOG in recent seasons. I’m not saying it justifies every decision but that’s what he meant by lack of trust. Something this large didn’t leak out which is obviously a good sign.

Or was it and everyone was just quiet about it? Leaks happen just look at the NHL. We're just on a smaller scale. 

[Motzaburger 1,590]

1 minute ago, flyersfan1453 said:

So, back to the original point...I don't see how this would be helpful. At the end of the day, people would still be annoyed that they didn't get picked, even if they were on the list. I'm ASSUMING this list wouldn't be a "turn order" (which I would be even more against), so all it does is make public the potential pool of candidates. It doesn't change any of the decisions.

 

At the end of the day, people are going to be disappointed that they weren't chosen. There are only so many GM spots available, and a ton more qualified people than there are spots.  

In the end, yes, some people will be mad no matter what. Altering how this was done will at least give people their chance to apply and know that they have a chance - whether it's expansion spots or new vacancies. 

 

Open applications (turn replies off) and PM whoever to apply, make a list, cut those according to @tfong's suggestions for criteria, then pick the best candidates. I'm not saying the people chosen are bad, and congrats to all of them, I'm saying the process of how this went about is unfair. If we advertise this place as a community, we need to have the leadership acting like it. If we continue this way, might as well advertise it as the VHL Dictatorship League (obvs that's a little severe, just making the point). 

[Advantage 2,899]

27 minutes ago, Victor said:

Ask around? Speak to people? I dunno, anything other than "the BOG is being marginalised because Beav said so". You know that's not true, can we just be clear here that the BOG knew for weeks that expansion was happening. And you also know that the BOG has never decided every single GM appointment in the league. So, again, is there an actual problem or are you just annoyed at something Beav said?

Well this post was made in the heat of the moment with no one else on so is what it is.

 

I've talked to Bek since and I know his side which we managed to have a civil and productive conversation about things.

 

We knew expansion has been happening which I losted above but also i know that we had no real say in it either.

 

And honestly I remember having more of a say in GM issues than you claim but perhaps that's me remembering incorrectly.

 

I would say more but busy at work at the moment and I feel like it's been taken far enough in here.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Advantage

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

5 minutes ago, Advantage said:

And honestly I remember having more of a say in GM issues than you claim but perhaps that's me remembering incorrectly.

 

In general, it's gone back and forth. I would say the BoG was more involved when it was a more "involved" decision to change GMs given the old GM Player rules that were in place. As the rules have gotten looser and the transitions easier, there's been less BoG involvement.

Edited June 13, 2020 by flyersfan1453

[Baozi 1,662]

10 minutes ago, Motzaburger said:

In the end, yes, some people will be mad no matter what. Altering how this was done will at least give people their chance to apply and know that they have a chance - whether it's expansion spots or new vacancies. 

 

Open applications (turn replies off) and PM whoever to apply, make a list, cut those according to @tfong's suggestions for criteria, then pick the best candidates. I'm not saying the people chosen are bad, and congrats to all of them, I'm saying the process of how this went about is unfair. If we advertise this place as a community, we need to have the leadership acting like it. If we continue this way, might as well advertise it as the VHL Dictatorship League (obvs that's a little severe, just making the point). 

 

17 minutes ago, flyersfan1453 said:

So, back to the original point...I don't see how this would be helpful. At the end of the day, people would still be annoyed that they didn't get picked, even if they were on the list. I'm ASSUMING this list wouldn't be a "turn order" (which I would be even more against), so all it does is make public the potential pool of candidates. It doesn't change any of the decisions.

 

At the end of the day, people are going to be disappointed that they weren't chosen. There are only so many GM spots available, and a ton more qualified people than there are spots.  

 

Correct, in the end there will still be people that will be upset even if they are fully qualified. What the intention of this list shows it 

 

a) Gives awareness to ALL potential candidates, not just ones we might only know "off the top of our head". So when a spot opens up and we see this entire list of people that are qualified, they all get notified and we don't have to worry about specific things that would normally have screened them out (ie lets say the person has several major infractions and the time period hasn't passed for those to be forgiven yet). Based on my conversation with some people, they are not even sure if people know they still want to be GMs.

 

b) Eliminates left field candidates. One of the partial concerns were "where did these guys get picked from?" At the very least if you see someone get picked from the qualified list and not just out of nowhere, then as a competitor at least you know you lost out to another person that was just as qualified since they also made this list already.

 

c) Sets requirements for GM applications. SWe can use this to establish a screening mechanism that other users need to strive for in order to make the initial cut. Users will also know what the bar is to be a GM. (ie , managed VHLM for 1 season, no infractions, has held a different job etc, has been on the forum for a year etc...) If we set some of these base requirements in stone, then it becomes more clear what you need to do to qualify. Currently people do not know what the minimum requirements or "additional requirements for consideration" are for GM positions, we can label these out and people can work towards them.

 

 

This system could be applied to all other job pools as well.

[Renomitsu 934]

1 hour ago, GustavMattias said:

 

Definitive PROOF that it was @Renomitsu

r u d e

 

but yes it was me, Dio!

[diamond_ace 3,112]

7 hours ago, Beketov said:

Congratulations, you just killed all the hype for the largest expansion the league has ever seen by telling everyone it’s coming. That announcement got people way more excited than any of the other expansions because it wasn’t leaked in advance like every other time. I’m fine saying there’s a possibility that we should have some general community pools without giving specifics (aka just an open “where should teams be” lost that isn’t specifying anything will necessarily happen) but it’s boring if everyone knows everything all the time.

 

I disagree that it would kill the hype. I think it would create more content for this place than we're taking into consideration here. Had people known, the number of articles and graphics about "possible expansion teams" would have been ridiculous. We always say we want people doing more stuff on the forums.

[Advantage 2,899]

6 minutes ago, diamond_ace said:

I disagree that it would kill the hype. I think it would create more content for this place than we're taking into consideration here. Had people known, the number of articles and graphics about "possible expansion teams" would have been ridiculous. We always say we want people doing more stuff on the forums.

Yeah I agree.  Not sure why random surprises creates hype...if anything it eliminates it.

[Beketov 9,102]

3 minutes ago, Motzaburger said:

Unfortunately there isn’t really hype or build up when no one knows it’s coming (twss). 
 

Build hype by making it a small announcement a long ways away. Let people speculate, let people spread rumours and shit. Obviously some surprises are good, but in this case the whole process being a surprise is not a good look. 
 

By telling the league there is going to be an expansion does not mean “everybody knows everything”. That’s the point of hyping up the news. You give them a sliver of something and let the speculation begin and the hype to grow meanwhile you can see what people thing and gauge the idea and find ways to make it even better. 
 

The top brass have the BoG and and a dedicated community below them. This is one of the ones that should not have been a surprise imo. Now things like the donation drive and theme week are small; those are good surprises. Expansion by four teams and keeping the BoG and the community in the dark (who could all offer some valuable input from start to finish), not a good surprise.

Agree to disagree. I’ve been around for every expansion the league has ever had. The ones where people saw it coming (DC and Prague being probably the worst with Moscow being bad as well) has no hype behind them. By the time the logos and locations and everything are announced people don’t care because they were excited about it 2 months before when they heard. Drop it as bombshell news and it’s just that, news. Mention it and then go radio silent and people stop caring.

 

I’m not saying everything was handled perfectly or smoothly but dropping the largest expansion in league history as a footnote wouldn’t go well either IMO.

[Advantage 2,899]

I think giving people a week or so notice creates that proper hype.  Not too early but not a "bombshell" either.

 

Easily can do the theme week around it too.

[bigAL 2,176]

2 hours ago, Doomsday said:

I personally don't like having requirements for an AGM... it's been described by multiple league officials as an internship to get the experience to learn how to be a GM. Why would the league want to prevent people from getting that experience?

I think AGMs should not have 'requirements', but still need to express their interest earlier than after the job opens up. I was one of those 'left-field' hires this season, and since then I've seen one and a half members leave and/or stopped applying for management jobs because they were so discouraged. Getting them onto a list and giving credit to the AGM candidates who have been on the list the longest will help to keep them engaged through the (sometimes) long process of becoming a VHL GM. Anyone who wants to be an AGM should be willing to AGM any team - not just their own - and therefore should be comfortable expressing their desire to AGM well in advance of knowing if/where/when they will get a shot.

[Baozi 1,662]

22 minutes ago, bigAL said:

I think AGMs should not have 'requirements', but still need to express their interest earlier than after the job opens up. I was one of those 'left-field' hires this season, and since then I've seen one and a half members leave and/or stopped applying for management jobs because they were so discouraged. Getting them onto a list and giving credit to the AGM candidates who have been on the list the longest will help to keep them engaged through the (sometimes) long process of becoming a VHL GM. Anyone who wants to be an AGM should be willing to AGM any team - not just their own - and therefore should be comfortable expressing their desire to AGM well in advance of knowing if/where/when they will get a shot.

 

Basically this. I think we should establish a pool of candidates to eliminate "friend hires" because really speaking there if we want to make AGM experience a legitimate skill, then it should be legitimized in the proper way.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

I like this idea... Would help to have a pool of people for future GM spots especially with expansion. Why they were not publicly posted job? The job ad could have simply said..

 

Potential Hiring: Potential future VHL / VHLM GMs explaining the league would like to establish a pool of potentially interested candidates for these jobs. 

 

Then list requirements for GM needed/etc. Thus allowing people to apply and then the league can filter them out. For those who might say what about your job Smitty you got it without a posting. Yes, but mine isn't a GMs job. You never know who would have applied and potentially shook up the league. Maybe @Motzaburger or @InstantRockstar or @Cxsquared who have been in the minors for quite some time would have applied.. If they knew

[Spartan 4,531]

2 hours ago, tfong said:

 

Basically this. I think we should establish a pool of candidates to eliminate "friend hires" because really speaking there if we want to make AGM experience a legitimate skill, then it should be legitimized in the proper way.

I support this, but it's a weird look when just a month ago, there was a massive movement against legitimizing AGM'S, a lack of willingness to set expectations for AGM duties, and then a refusal to pay AGM's for doing work that "should be done by the GM." There's going to have to be a willingness to have AGM's for every team, and then actual requirements and respect for those candidates, and I'm not sure if that exists in the league yet.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

7 minutes ago, BigTittySmitty said:

I like this idea... Would help to have a pool of people for future GM spots especially with expansion. Why they were not publicly posted job? The job ad could have simply said..

 

Potential Hiring: Potential future VHL / VHLM GMs explaining the league would like to establish a pool of potentially interested candidates for these jobs. 

 

Then list requirements for GM needed/etc. Thus allowing people to apply and then the league can filter them out. For those who might say what about your job Smitty you got it without a posting. Yes, but mine isn't a GMs job. You never know who would have applied and potentially shook up the league. Maybe @Motzaburger or @InstantRockstar or @Cxsquared who have been in the minors for quite some time would have applied.. If they knew

 

To quote myself instead of editing my post. When I was Commish/Head Office/etc in any other league I have been in. I always believed the minor leagues as a developmental position to then go for the major league jobs. Where I would always encourage anyone who was a GM in the minor leagues I commished to apply for the major league promotions. Minor league spots are where you develop your future league talent. Let them shine.

[Baozi 1,662]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

I support this, but it's a weird look when just a month ago, there was a massive movement against legitimizing AGM'S, a lack of willingness to set expectations for AGM duties, and then a refusal to pay AGM's for doing work that "should be done by the GM." There's going to have to be a willingness to have AGM's for every team, and then actual requirements and respect for those candidates, and I'm not sure if that exists in the league yet.

 

Situations change, this is still different from legitimatizing agms prior as this makes it harder to be one even since you'd have to fulfill certain requirements.

[Spartan 4,531]

Just now, tfong said:

 

Situations change, this is still different from legitimatizing agms prior as this makes it harder to be one even since you'd have to fulfill certain requirements.

Maybe it would be nice to make it harder to become one, as long as there is some sort of set path to follow to rise through the leadership position ranks. For example, certain qualifications must be met to become a WJC GM, then that experience plus time in the league for AGM, and so on. It could be a nice way to standardize the process and make it clear what the minimum is for each position to avoid favoritism claims or frustration from people.

[Rayzor_7 741]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

WJC GM, then that experience plus time in the league for AGM

As someone who's hired 2 GMs. (One is now a GM and the other still works for me) 

Hell to the no on standardization of AGMs in any way shape or form.

[Baozi 1,662]

11 minutes ago, Rayzor_7 said:

As someone who's hired 2 GMs. (One is now a GM and the other still works for me) 

Hell to the no on standardization of AGMs in any way shape or form.

 

As I posted before, it probably shouldn't be that specific because it would bottleneck people. Things like time in league, no infractions, tpe over career would likely be better beginning requirements for agms. The idea is that most of those agms have no experience anyways so you would need to be more personality based.