S54: Update Scale Changes

[Will 4,660]

UPDATING THE UPDATE SCALE

In all the ways the league has changed since inception in S1, virtually the only thing to remain untouched is the update scale. That is really quite a surprising fact given how much change has gone on all around it, specifically the indisputable fact that TPE levels are higher. But today we announce some modest changes to the update scale meant to bring it up to date with today's VHL. This is a topic that's been brought up many times over the past many season and we're confident that we have found a fair solution that makes a little bit more sense while not hurting any one group of players nor unfairly benefiting another. 

 

The new update scale is as follows:

 

40 -> 70 ---- 1 TPE per point

70 -> 80 ---- 2 TPE per point

80 -> 85 ---- 3 TPE per point

85 -> 90 ---- 4 TPE per point

90 -> 95 ---- 5 TPE per point

95 -> 99 ---- 6 TPE per point

As you can see, the update scale doesn't change prior to 85 in an attribute. That leaves 99.9% of the VHLM completely unaffected and it also allows for lower TPE earners to still get to a solid level of 85 without being affected at all by the new scale. The jump to 90 is rather small as well, requiring only an additional 5 TPE over the old scale. For those reasons, we feel this scale is very fair to all kinds of members whether they're active or semi-active. 90-95 and most of all 95-99 is where the changes are significant and, especially when coupled with depreciation, even the highest TPE earners will have difficulty maintaining several attributes at 99. The introduction of this scale will force some more decision making for everyone in the final stages of an attribute, hopefully causing a deviation from the current #1 strategy which is to 99 everything you can.

 

This has been discussed extensively but we've also run several test sims and conversions, so I'm confident in saying this is really a modest change that is fair to everyone.

 

Implementation

Implementation will occur in the S53 off-season. Until that time, all updates should continue to follow the old scale.

 

Here's how implementation will work:

• Near the end of VHL Playoffs, the Updaters will stop processing all updates.
• This seasons depreciation will occur very early in the off-season. Following depreciation, all players pages will be converted to the new update scale directly based on how much TPE is applied to each attribute at that point in time.
• After everyone has been converted initially, we'll be offering a free TPE Re-Roll to anyone who wants one. This will allow you to re-allocate all of your TPE based on the new update scale. Updates will begin to be processed again at this time. Instructions on this will come later.
• Following the conversion, re-rolls, depreciation, etc., attributes in the sim will be updated. From there, it will be business as usual under the new update scale.
   

That's about all I have for now. I will have another announcement up closer to the off-season discussing implementation more, including more details on the TPE re-distributions. We are happy to try to answer any questions posted in this thread.

 

 

 

[Baozi 1,658]

This is why I should be included in BOG. I'm a healthy representative of the welfare users.

 

Also, now can we have bonus welfare points from shop again? 

Edited February 23, 2017 by tfong

[Will 4,660]

2 minutes ago, tfong said:

Also, now can we have bonus welfare points from shop again? 

 

Not going to do that right away, but IF it became evident that this affected welfare users more than anticipated that would certainly be an easy way to fix it. That's a big if, like I said I really don't think welfare players will see much change. 

[Jericho 917]

2 minutes ago, tfong said:

This is why I should be included in BOG. I'm a healthy representative of the welfare users.

 

Also, now can we have bonus welfare points from shop again? 

 

Rest assured that there were some very strong opinions from welfare users.

 

This was a topic which took a lot of debate, but when we looked at the math this actually benefits the welfare users more than you'd think. Right now it's so easy to get stats to 99 that you can min-ax your stats and only spend 116 TPE to get from 40-99. This means that players can have 3 stats at 99 before 350 TPE, which has been enough for crazy seasons out of young players in the past.

 

The scale doesn't kick in until 85, so you're literally unaffected until then, and it only starts catching members out at the highest levels. The idea here wasn't "fuck welfare players" it was "man it sucks that this 400 TPE guys is making this 800 TPE guy look like a bitch this year". This problem is something that happens to welfare guys too. The idea was to make it harder to min-max and get results as early in a career. You want your 800 TPE guys to do better than your 400 TPE guys relatively consistently, and you guys can get there in your careers as well.

 

Now obviously TPE whores are going to get there faster, but that's the reward you get for being a whore. An extra season or two of relevance. Realistically what this should do it stop the lower TPE players from stealing the glory from the higher TPE guys.

[Baozi 1,658]

1 minute ago, Will said:

 

Not going to do that right away, but IF it became evident that this affected welfare users more than anticipated that would certainly be an easy way to fix it. That's a big if, like I said I really don't think welfare players will see much change. 

 

Well it doesn't affect welfare users from this current standpoint, but the prior reasoning behind removing the bonus point from the shop was because people thought welfare users could reach the same level of play as elite users easily. I don't think that argument really has any data behind it.

[Will 4,660]

4 minutes ago, tfong said:

 

Well it doesn't affect welfare users from this current standpoint, but the prior reasoning behind removing the bonus point from the shop was because people thought welfare users could reach the same level of play as elite users easily. I don't think that argument really has any data behind it.

 

Well, my problem with the pension upgrades is I find it extremely difficult to justify them when the fan590 upgrade exists giving you 2 TPE for 150 words. Having welfare upgrades just discourages people who might of otherwise at least written a 590 every week. 

[Baozi 1,658]

Just now, Jericho said:

 

Rest assured that there were some very strong opinions from welfare users.

 

This was a topic which took a lot of debate, but when we looked at the math this actually benefits the welfare users more than you'd think. Right now it's so easy to get stats to 99 that you can min-ax your stats and only spend 116 TPE to get from 40-99. This means that players can have 3 stats at 99 before 350 TPE, which has been enough for crazy seasons out of young players in the past.

 

The scale doesn't kick in until 85, so you're literally unaffected until then, and it only starts catching members out at the highest levels. The idea here wasn't "fuck welfare players" it was "man it sucks that this 400 TPE guys is making this 800 TPE guy look like a bitch this year". This problem is something that happens to welfare guys too. The idea was to make it harder to min-max and get results as early in a career. You want your 800 TPE guys to do better than your 400 TPE guys relatively consistently, and you guys can get there in your careers as well.

 

Now obviously TPE whores are going to get there faster, but that's the reward you get for being a whore. An extra season or two of relevance. Realistically what this should do it stop the lower TPE players from stealing the glory from the higher TPE guys.

 

Think you misunderstood me, I was in favor of having the scale become harder at 90 and 95 tier levels so this I'm not opposing.

 

The BOG comment was more because I originally was on the BOG but removed for whatever reason that I don't recall but likely unjustified now (lol). I want to be in the special forum again (and i think i also bring benefits to the group.)

 

My stance has always been that welfare users should be able to make normal decent players. Then along with other things they participate in (pick ems and all the other bonus TPE available to welfare and non-welfare) then they could create competitive strong players. I don't believe any pure welfare user should be able to make an elite player and I still think that hasn't happened ever anyways. In actuality I think a pure welfare player doesn't even reach the mark of making competitive normal players at most points either.

[Jericho 917]

Just now, tfong said:

 

Think you misunderstood me, I was in favor of having the scale become harder at 90 and 95 tier levels so this I'm not opposing.

 

The BOG comment was more because I originally was on the BOG but removed for whatever reason that I don't recall but likely unjustified now (lol). I want to be in the special forum again (and i think i also bring benefits to the group.)

 

My stance has always been that welfare users should be able to make normal decent players. Then along with other things they participate in (pick ems and all the other bonus TPE available to welfare and non-welfare) then they could create competitive strong players. I don't believe any pure welfare user should be able to make an elite player and I still think that hasn't happened ever anyways. In actuality I think a pure welfare player doesn't even reach the mark of making competitive normal players at most points either.

 

Ok, we're totally on the same page then. There were some more radical statements made in our discussions so I figured that's what this was a repeat of.

 

Yeah I think we can agree on that idea.

[Baozi 1,658]

7 minutes ago, Will said:

 

Well, my problem with the pension upgrades is I find it extremely difficult to justify them when the fan590 upgrade exists giving you 2 TPE for 150 words. Having welfare upgrades just discourages people who might of otherwise at least written a 590 every week. 

 

But this is similar to a piracy argument where the game or film company believes that for every movie pirated, they have lost on a sale. Whereas people that pirate generally fall in the category of not having the ability to purchase or are not inclined to purchase the product to begin with.

 

I think if a person wasn't motivated to make a Fan 590 in the beginning, regardless of the pension upgrade (which costs money anyways and not an insignificant amount) they weren't going to do so anyways. Also unless you were a star player or someone paid marginally well, you weren't able to afford the pension upgrade each year anyways. Even worse if you were a welfare only player and your TPE bracket would essentially require you to save multiple seasons in order to purchase the pension upgrade.

Edited February 23, 2017 by tfong

[Molholt 2,185]

Sure, announce big changes after I quit.

[Beketov 9,025]

Well, this is gonna make my last 2 seasons even shittier than I was hoping for. I guess I get to pray that I do well this year because depreciation is going to hit me like a ton of bricks.

[Will 4,660]

3 minutes ago, Molholt said:

Sure, announce big changes after I quit.

 

Will waive the retirement penalty if you don't... :] 

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

12 minutes ago, Molholt said:

Sure, announce big changes after I quit.

it was going to be announced yesterday but you quitting was bigger news

[Kendrick 4,741]

20 minutes ago, tfong said:

 

But this is similar to a piracy argument where the game or film company believes that for every movie pirated, they have lost on a sale. Whereas people that pirate generally fall in the category of not having the ability to purchase or are not inclined to purchase the product to begin with.

 

I think if a person wasn't motivated to make a Fan 590 in the beginning, regardless of the pension upgrade (which costs money anyways and not an insignificant amount) they weren't going to do so anyways. Also unless you were a star player or someone paid marginally well, you weren't able to afford the pension upgrade each year anyways. Even worse if you were a welfare only player and your TPE bracket would essentially require you to save multiple seasons in order to purchase the pension upgrade.

You are basically saying, "let's make it easier for welfare claimers" when in reality they could easily just write a 2 minute article.

[Higgins 3,618]

2 minutes ago, TheLastOlympian07 said:

it was going to be announced yesterday but you quitting was bigger news

 

Im still thinking he quit is fake news 

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

#NOTMYCOMMISSIONERS

[Baozi 1,658]

9 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

You are basically saying, "let's make it easier for welfare claimers" when in reality they could easily just write a 2 minute article.

 

No, I'm basically saying, "This was removed unnecessarily because the likelihood of a welfare person deciding to write a 2 minute article was low or non-existent anyways".

Edited February 23, 2017 by tfong

[Kesler 1,514]

what a bitch, of course I just made a player.

[Smarch 3,153]

Great this gets introduced as all my attributes are hitting 85+

 

@Will why you hate me?

[Kendrick 4,741]

1 hour ago, tfong said:

 

No, I'm basically saying, "This was removed unnecessarily because the likelihood of a welfare person deciding to write a 2 minute article was low or non-existent anyways".

By saying that though you are basically telling us to reward welfare claimers? Basically a slap in the face to everyone else who is extremely active. Also in the amount of time you spend discussing things, you could write a VHL Fan article.

[Bushito 1,945]

Ensuring new members can never be as good as past ones.

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

5 minutes ago, Scooter said:

Ensuring new members can never be as good as past ones.

well to be fair thats how it is in almost every league. the players who were created first will always be better than those who get created at a later date because they took advantage of a young league by working their ass off. aka Scotty Campbell is the greatest player ever but only had like 690 tpe which by todays standards are a good player but not one who will get into the HoF

[Jericho 917]

29 minutes ago, Scooter said:

Ensuring new members can never be as good as past ones.

 

It's actually more of an adjustment for inflation. The top earners back in the day were hitting 600 TPE.

 

Nowadays it's not uncommon to pass 1000, and the scale never adjusted. My first player was in Season 24, i was the second guy to pass 1000 TPE as a first gen player (we didn't get the staring TPE back then so it was harder), and I was at 99 in every stat that mattered (except faceoofs as a defenseman) in my last 3 seasons. I was able to full handle depreciation in every year except my 8th (and i would have if i hadn't retired at trade deadline)

 

Nowadays hat level of commitment would grant you upwards of 1400 TPE, so you end up with nothing to spend it on.

[Devise 4,475]

56 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

By saying that though you are basically telling us to reward welfare claimers? Basically a slap in the face to everyone else who is extremely active. Also in the amount of time you spend discussing things, you could write a VHL Fan article.

 

This. Guys you do realize Fan590's restrictions on how "league related" it is is very loose. Type 150 words, hit post. Claim. It's really that easy.  

 

Also I'm happy to finally see these changes. After much discussion in the BoG over the past several seasons, and then the tests done by Will there was a decent consensus. Obviously there was some resistance even in there but realistically even some of the more extreme saw that there was very little actual damage being down to the welfare users, and it's more so about just inching that gap a bit more for the higher earners to have a better sense of the value of the extra TPE they were earning. 

 

Ultimately though, and this should be stated publicly but it was Kendricks exact scale that was used here everyone. So give props to Kendrick for the scale, as it is the one that ended up fitting the middle ground the most for accomplishing what we intended with the least amount of restrictions/punishment to the casual earners. 

[Bushito 1,945]

25 minutes ago, TheLastOlympian07 said:

well to be fair thats how it is in almost every league. the players who were created first will always be better than those who get created at a later date because they took advantage of a young league by working their ass off. aka Scotty Campbell is the greatest player ever but only had like 690 tpe which by todays standards are a good player but not one who will get into the HoF

Fair enough but it still makes me think I'll be at a disadvantage with Abbott and just recreate in a couple seasons. I'm not saying this hampers my interest in the league. At the same time it does make me feel I'm playing on an uneven playing field with this player which absolutely sucks after wasting 40$ on it.