Making AGMs a Legitimate Position

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

So this is reiterating a lot of what I said previously in the discord earlier today. I would like to get some peoples thoughts on this and see if we can brainstorm some ideas of how to make AGMs a legitimate position with semi-standardized duties within the league, both increasing interaction and job satisfaction (ie pay). 

The whole reason we are all in this league is because we want to simulate what its like to be in a robust, fully realized sporting league. Complete with contract negotiations, media coverage, simulations, personal relationships, and all that. As such, the goal of our league should be to raise the integration of real-world features as much as possible (within reason). This is one of the reasons I have been an advocate for the Player's Union/Association, although it hasn't panned out properly (but that isn't the point of this post). 

 

From the team management perspective, the only position everyone accepts as needed is the GM. That's honestly fair. I agree that AGMs aren't "needed." A team can function perfectly well without them. However, I still think our goal should be to make AGM's fully integrated and legitimate, if not necessarily "needed." In my opinion, having two dedicated management spots per team is a completely reasonable structure. Considering a full team right now should consist of at least 11 players (6-4-1), having two managers makes sense. 

 

The big arguments against AGMs/AGM pay are that they are:

 

1) Unnecessary

2) Should be unpaid internships

3) Do not have standardized duties, and therefore do not deserve standardized pay. 

 

I think the solution to this isn't going back and forth about it, I think it is us as a league brainstorming how to make AGMs a legitimate position. Meaning they have standardized duties that help the league/their team in some way. I would love to hear anyone's input on the topic. 
 

Right now my main idea would be creating some new media/point task available to AGMs that involve them doing something to either create media for the team/about the team for the league, or for them to do something that helps them improve their team. 

 

For example, maybe there could be weekly team recaps in which the AGMs summarize what happened for the team, new signings, line changes, or even just a slice of life within the team. Maybe this could be treated as an in-league social media for the given team, IDK. The point is I think this could be a small way of both simulating team/league activity while also giving the AGMs a chance to showcase the work they are putting into their team. If an AGM is really keeping up with everything/promoting LR activity, then they should be able to easily complete this weekly task. 

I will leave with a quote from @Proto which I think you should think about. 
 

Quote

2 tpe = 6 to 10 sentences, historically. If we don't think agms are worth 6-10 sentences I think we are set too far in the old days

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Mr_Hatter

[eaglesfan036 4,603]

23 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

 

Right now my main idea would be creating some new media/point task available to AGMs that involve them doing something to either create media for the team/about the team for the league, or for them to do something that helps them improve their team. 

 

 
 

 

 

This sounds like something that would be followed for a season or 2, then kind of forgotten about and thrown away while people still collect tpe

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

11 minutes ago, ContinentalCup036 said:

 

This sounds like something that would be followed for a season or 2, then kind of forgotten about and thrown away while people still collect tpe

Would be something updaters would need to check I guess; not just auto approve.

The main point is I'm not saying this is the be all end all idea. I would love it if someone else could come up with something better

 

[McWolf 3,115]

56 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

Right now my main idea would be creating some new media/point task available to AGMs that involve them doing something to either create media for the team/about the team for the league, or for them to do something that helps them improve their team. 

 

For example, maybe there could be weekly team recaps in which the AGMs summarize what happened for the team, new signings, line changes, or even just a slice of life within the team. Maybe this could be treated as an in-league social media for the given team, IDK. The point is I think this could be a small way of both simulating team/league activity while also giving the AGMs a chance to showcase the work they are putting into their team. If an AGM is really keeping up with everything/promoting LR activity, then they should be able to easily complete this weekly task. 

 

There is literally nothing that prevents GMs or AGMs from doing it. You wouldn't get AGM pay from, but you'd get the TPE from the PT and it could have a snowball effect, getting your players to start doing stuff like that, making them and your team even better.

 

Win-win

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

1 minute ago, McWolf said:

 

There is literally nothing that prevents GMs or AGMs from doing it. You wouldn't get AGM pay from, but you'd get the TPE from the PT and it could have a snowball effect, getting your players to start doing stuff like that, making them and your team even better.

 

Win-win

I think you are focusing a little too much on my specific idea, but I suppose that's what I get for coming up with a bad example. 

[McWolf 3,115]

4 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

I think you are focusing a little too much on my specific idea, but I suppose that's what I get for coming up with a bad example. 

Yeah, sorry about that. There are like 2 debates going on at the same time and didn't feel like re-writing my monologue here.

 

Here's my opinion on making AGMs paid: Link.

 

I'm a GM myself. I have an AGM and wouldn't go without him. I have also been an AGM at both levels and I believe I was somewhat useful on both occasions. But I still don't believe the AGMs should be paid.

Edited May 4, 2020 by McWolf

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

2 minutes ago, McWolf said:

Yeah, sorry about that. There are like 2 debates going on at the same time and didn't feel like re-writing my monologue here.

 

Here's my opinion on making AGMs paid: Link.

 

I'm a GM myself. I have an AGM and wouldn't go without him. I have also been an AGM at both levels and I believe I was somewhat useful on both occasions. But I still don't believe the AGMs should be paid.

And you know what, I completely agree with your opinion on the matter for AGM's in their current state. That's why I am advocating for altering the position in some way, to legitimize it; I just don't know what that way is. 

[Gustav 6,407]

I once typed up a big thing about why AGMs should have their own role and a set paycheck every week, but I've kind of cooled off on that a bit.

 

If you're getting involved with your team as an AGM, great! You're doing a good job (unless the GM is just too lazy to do theirs, in which case it's still their fault a lot more than yours). It's something that can be pretty beneficial to a team, and I don't see myself ever arguing against that. 

 

But yeah, keep it an internship. GMs get paid 2 TPE per week in the first place; that isn't a really big deal. If an AGM is doing half the work, then the GM doesn't deserve to be paid the same as other GMs who do end up doing all the work. That's where the whole pay-splitting thing comes in. 

 

And, finally: if you or anyone else as an AGM wants to kick off a media spot or .com article series on your team, go do it! It's an interesting idea, and you're effectively getting paid for it anyway when you think about it.

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

5 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

I don't understand why people think the AGM role needs to change to begin with? Someone put it well in the other thread- they're as useful/active within the team as their GM would like them to be.

 

As for the point task thing, McWolf hit the nail right on the head. Sounds like something creative that an AGM could do that requires zero permission form anybody. Sounds like a good weekly media spot/VHL.com topic to me.

 

My big issue with a lot of this stuff, generally, is that nobody cares about doing anything until you attach TPE to it. Defeats the purpose of the sim league, IMO. If you want to do something creative and fun, something that changes the way people look at a role or topic in the community, then just fucking do it.If you think you can inherently bring more value to a role by setting a standard, then why do you need a TPE incentive to do it? Most everything is claimable as it is, anyway.

I guess what I would say to that is being part of something official is very cool to people. Its the reason I wanted to be in the VSN; something which started out unsanctioned and has since become an integrated part of the VHL (correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

I think its important for you to realize that you are part of a privileged minority when it comes to being an integrated member of the VHL. You are part of the BOG. You are a GM. Those are things that people want to be a part of. It means a lot more when you have an official platform to stand on. 

I do understand your point about needing to attach TPE to something to make it feel worthwhile for people. For what its worth, I AGM, I don't get pay, and I am completely happy with it for myself. But I am not advocating for myself; and to be clear, extra work would make it harder for me as I reach cap without it because of VSN pay. 

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

8 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

I once typed up a big thing about why AGMs should have their own role and a set paycheck every week, but I've kind of cooled off on that a bit.

 

If you're getting involved with your team as an AGM, great! You're doing a good job (unless the GM is just too lazy to do theirs, in which case it's still their fault a lot more than yours). It's something that can be pretty beneficial to a team, and I don't see myself ever arguing against that. 

 

But yeah, keep it an internship. GMs get paid 2 TPE per week in the first place; that isn't a really big deal. If an AGM is doing half the work, then the GM doesn't deserve to be paid the same as other GMs who do end up doing all the work. That's where the whole pay-splitting thing comes in. 

 

And, finally: if you or anyone else as an AGM wants to kick off a media spot or .com article series on your team, go do it! It's an interesting idea, and you're effectively getting paid for it anyway when you think about it.

I just am of the opinion that more jobs are generally a good thing; now maybe we should limit the amount of jobs one person can hold, but that is a different discussion. 

[Gustav 6,407]

8 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

I just am of the opinion that more jobs are generally a good thing; now maybe we should limit the amount of jobs one person can hold, but that is a different discussion. 

 

I mean, making an AGM a paid position that's more officially considered a job wouldn't really change much. The teams that use AGMs would continue to do so, and those that don't would also continue to do so. The same people would be in the same positions doing the same things.

 

Unless the league were to require that each team have an AGM, which a) all the GMs would hate, and b) would almost definitely never happen.

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

Just now, GustavMattias said:

 

I mean, making an AGM a paid position that's more officially considered a job wouldn't really change much. The teams that use AGMs would continue to do so, and those that don't would also continue to do so. The same people would be in the same positions doing the same things.

 

Unless the league were to require that each team have an AGM, which a) all the GMs would hate, and b) would almost definitely never happen.

I realize that mandating it isn't exactly a good idea... I just would hope the league culture would shift such that most GMs would have one, if it were a more dedicated position. I think the issue that you bring up more stems from GMs not wanting to give up any control haha

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

Just now, Proto said:

The primary issue with splitting pay is that the only GMs who are willing to split pay are those who already cap. In theory, it's a good idea and makes sense. In practice, it's poorly executed and impossible to enforce. 

No offense, but that wasn't the point of this post at all. Though I agree with you.

[Gustav 6,407]

Just now, Mr_Hatter said:

I realize that mandating it isn't exactly a good idea... I just would hope the league culture would shift such that most GMs would have one, if it were a more dedicated position. I think the issue that you bring up more stems from GMs not wanting to give up any control haha

 

That's the thing about the league culture shift you bring up: it wouldn't happen. @Banackock is probably the most anti-AGM GM we've got at the moment, and if you told him "hey, AGMs are now official and they're getting paid to promote the team," he'd probably just tell you "OK, cool, I don't care. Good for them." I'm fairly neutral on AGMs, and that's what I'd say too, to be honest. I doubt anyone without an AGM would end up hiring one because of this.

 

Any AGM I've had will tell you that I pretty much just taught them the basics and answered their questions and then went off and did most things on my own and pretty much just appreciated what they brought to the Discord and did my best to see to it that they got hired as GMs elsewhere (I'm 3 for 4 on that, damn @Radcow disappeared on me). There are probably teams where paying the AGM would make sense; I'm not doubting that. But it really does vary from place to place, and that's really how it should be. Ultimately, the team should be under complete control of the GM, and they should have the right to keep or give up (within reason) as much power as they'd like. 

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

2 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

 

(limiting the quote, just trying to respond in general)

I really appreciate your perspective and response. Keep in mind I am new here; very new, and as such I don't have a strong grasp on member history. Let me try and explain what I meant by "privileged." I didn't mean it to come across as discounting what you have contributed, if I did it was out of ignorance, and I apologize.

I didn't mean it to come across as you didn't earn your position. I just meant that due to your position, you have a somewhat insular view of the VHL. You are in a position where you naturally feel part of the VHL as an important member in an important role; which you have demonstrated that you deserve. I am in the same position, in a way, though as a VSN writer and as a VHLM AGM; maybe less prestigious, but certainly officially recognized. I get to feel like I am a voice of authority in this community, even if only to a small degree. 

 

I think there are a lot of people who don't get to feel they are an official part of the VHL until they get a real job, and I am of the opinion that the more we can help integrate these members with official recognition, the more community engagement and retention we can have. I could be wrong here; maybe it wouldn't help. Also, maybe people don't feel this way; I know I did to an extent, but I don't speak for everyone. 

 

I just ask you take a moment to think about where your voice comes from, and realize that you have a platform many others don't, and it is natural to forget that, and forget how it feels to be a new member and new player. If I am way off base here then I'm sorry, but that's just my perspective. 

 

The last thing I will say is that while I also wish people would do things for the love of the league rather than TPE, does that mean we should not give them TPE for that work? You put in a shit ton of work that you didn't claim, because you care and wanted to do that for your community. That's fucking awesome. But you did deserve pay for that. The league should reward you for that; and TPE is the way (or at least a way) they have to do it. 

[Banackock 8,047]

3 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

 

That's the thing about the league culture shift you bring up: it wouldn't happen. @Banackock is probably the most anti-AGM GM we've got at the moment, and if you told him "hey, AGMs are now official and they're getting paid to promote the team," he'd probably just tell you "OK, cool, I don't care. Good for them."

Yes. However, I would likely hire one to exploit the system. They would do nothing, the position would mean nothing and we would continue as is. As greasy as it is, it makes sense. Think I'd be the only one doing it? Doubtful. Also, it's no secret to the league that Seattle has a SC. I love these members as people and they're my most trusted group in this league right now. They are basically, in some ways, Assistants truly.. and they do it for free, fun and without an official label.  

 

Does Bana not have 1 AGM, but maybe many?

 

 

I'm an incredibly strong believer that if I cannot do the job, step away. Life gets crazy busy for me with this new role at work etc as it does for everyone else but I understand what work needs to be delivered and have managed to do it for almost 5 years straight on this site if you count my VHLM tenure. May 2020 will be my 4 year "anniversary" with the Bears (mark it down). I do it because I love the members and I love the league. My extra efforts and all that jazz, it's showing gratitude to those things.  

 

I am anti-AGM but I would say that I am less so now. I've learned to accept them for what they are. As a leader, I try and grow with everyone else. I'm not perfect in these roles but I give it 110%. I've heard the cries about the Assistant GM role and I've listened as one of the dictator's. That's one thing the M GM's and myself do well. We have no issue lighting the BBQ and turning up the heat, lol. We also hold a GM Summit to discuss league issues and include the GM's as much as possible. At the end of the day, the more people we have contributing/discussing with a common goal of league improvement, retention and enjoyment at heart, the better off we are.

 

For the AGM role, I don't really think it's much at all in the VHL. I would never get one and I would never want one. It's someone to bounce ideas off, maybe help with Press Conference or very occasionally send in the odd lines when chaos gets a little wild in life. For the VHLM, I've learned to be okay with it. GM's claim it's someone to help them out do the small things like I named above and the GM is teaching them about maybe trades, the league and how to use the programs. Lots of Assistants in the M have been great presences in the Discord as well. I'm sure much similar in their own LR's. This has led to promotion to having their own teams in the M.. The VHLM is a league where players, members, managers and all of the above go to grow into whatever they have potential to reach. It is the first step to the staircase for every member, hehe. Players graduate and become stars or @Acydburn (love you, dog). Members join the league, have strong influence's and become amazing contributors like our very own commissioner, @Beaviss, or BoG members like @McWolf @Rayzor_7 @Enorama @Sonnet etc. GM's grow in that league, learn the basics of what happens, they get the chance to show off their skills/ethics and maybe just maybe make the leap like @GustavMattias and @Peace. 

 

No to an official role. No to official pay... This is my media spot for the week. 

 

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE MY MONEY

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

5 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

 

I do understand that I can speak from a place that many others can't, and I definitely remember how frustrating it was as a newer member trying to make my voice count in varying conversations. I understand the goal in trying to make some of these jobs more official, but I have a weird feeling about it that I'll try to represent in the best way I can.

 

In short, I don't like furthering the idea that having a job = higher standing, if that makes sense. Rather than creating/regulating new jobs to make sure everybody has one and feels appreciated, I feel like we should be going in the opposite direction to make sure members can contribute and be recognized without holding an official standing. I get that it's harder to do so, and that a good chunk of people would still like to just see the color of their name change, but I feel like it's ultimately better to bring the prestige of jobs down while making regular members aware that they mean just as much as an integrated member of the site. I feel like this was a mistake I made early on- I put so much value in having an assigned task to perform that I failed to realize how much I could do just on my own.

 

The last point is something I agree with, but I don't think AGMs are the place to apply it to. i mentioned in the other thread that I viewed being an AGM as more of a privilege than a right, which I definitely stand by. I think the position should value growth over tangible payment, giving the member a chance to both learn from their GM and be creative with what they want to bring while in the role. If they get officially paid for the role, it shifts the focus from "I want to do more to help out the site," to "I can earn more TPE by getting a job, I guess I'll do this," and i'm not sure I really like that change in philosophy.

Hey fair enough Like I said I don't have all the answers. Its interesting you bring up the part about wanting to give individual members more recognition; that's something VSN has tried to do recently (and honestly somewhat failed in I think) by promoting individual media spots to the VHL portal front page. I totally agree with you in that we need to all try and do this, VHLM or VHL, because recognition breeds retention imo. I've been hearing a lot of push back on AGM stuff, some of which I disagree with but some is a lot of good points. I woudn't say I agree fully; I think there exists a way of remaking AGMs such that it works both as a concept and as a paid position, but I can appreciate the argument against. Thanks for sharing!

[Quik 4,113]

3 minutes ago, Sonnet said:

While I'm on it, I could have done a lot better in that role. Sorry, @Quik 

Did all I asked and more bb

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

@Sonnet Welcome to the Old Boys Club

[McWolf 3,115]

3 minutes ago, flyersfan1453 said:

@Sonnet Welcome to the Old Boys Club

@Enorama 

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

No worries haha more my fault @Proto

[Gustav 6,407]

This thread has been a good, productive discussion as a whole, but the meme had to be made...

[Beketov 9,025]

3 hours ago, Sonnet said:

 

In short, I don't like furthering the idea that having a job = higher standing, if that makes sense. Rather than creating/regulating new jobs to make sure everybody has one and feels appreciated, I feel like we should be going in the opposite direction to make sure members can contribute and be recognized without holding an official standing. I get that it's harder to do so, and that a good chunk of people would still like to just see the color of their name change, but I feel like it's ultimately better to bring the prestige of jobs down while making regular members aware that they mean just as much as an integrated member of the site. I feel like this was a mistake I made early on- I put so much value in having an assigned task to perform that I failed to realize how much I could do just on my own.

Fun fact: the first 10 years I was in the VHL the only job I ever held was grader or updater. Go check my builder article if you don’t believe me. Had to basically make up a bunch of extra non-jobs to pad it when I was literally campaigning myself to get inducted as a builder. Why do I bring this up? Because I never felt like I was less a part of the community because my name didn’t have a fancy colour and I didn’t make decisions.

 

I recognize times change and the league is bigger now so maybe finding your place in the community seems harder, I’m not sure. I just know that this prevailing mindset that you need to be in some kind of position of power to be taken seriously or get anything done is getting out of hand. You wanna make the VHL a better place? Go do it! I used to build skins for the place and get maybe 1 PT out of weeks of work. @boubabi made piles of logos for us and got paid I think a doubles week or something? If you enjoy the league then by all means put the time in, I promise you that we notice. @Sonnet wasn’t handed a BOG job because we pulled his name out of a hat. Neither was @GustavMattias, or @Enorama, or @Rayzor_7, or anyone else. You earn the respect and the positions eventually by showing activity and enjoyment in the league and wanting to better it. Sometimes that involves pay, sometimes it doesn’t. Hell, BoG has never been a paid position and never should be.

 

You wanna make the league a better place? Great, go make it a better place. You don’t need a colourful name or a fancy title to do it. 

[ColeMrtz 574]

5 hours ago, Mr_Hatter said:

It means a lot more when you have an official platform to stand on. 

I agree with you 100%, back around S64 I pulled together a lot of new members to make the VHLM Magazine that @Sonnetmentioned earlier for this exact purpose. Writing massive articles about the league is cool but you don’t really feel the recognition (or at least at the time you didn’t really) for your effort, so condensing a lot of league related coverage that was endorsed by the league felt like you were making an impact. But for AGMs, maybe it’s just me but the being paid was never really a part of what made me feel involved. Simply having that AGM tag makes you a figure to look up to in a lockeroom, especially at the M level. You’re a guiding figure and you get to help manage a team from time to time. Some GMs handle that role better than others, so maybe you don’t really feel that way, but I’ll stand by the statement that the position is already impactful without the pay. It’s not an “official” position in the leagues eyes yet every member knows of its existence and the majority of teams have one. If it’s official in the eyes of the community, I’d say there’s a platform there.

[boubabi 4,725]

the pay was 3 tpe per logo

 

oof