HOT TAKE: Secondary Simmers

[Dil 1,744]

11 minutes ago, Advantage said:

Thats fine.  I just also think while you are GM it would be easier to just pass it off to one of the other people that are willing to until you aren't one again.  Just my opinion.

 

I was of the same opinion with Devise even tho i don't think either of you would cheat.

Rift was a monster whenever devise simmed tbh  

 

 

im joking devise pls don’t hurt me

[frescoelmo 1,218]

I feel attacked by the OP

[Dil 1,744]

30 minutes ago, frescoelmo said:

I feel attacked by the OP

And why does it make you feel that way?

Edited June 15, 2020 by Dil

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

If we really need it, I'll be a simmer. Just don't be surprised to see DC go on a hot streak all of a sudden.

[Snussu 117]

Okay so

@Dil @Beaviss @Devise @Beketov @Motzaburger @Josh @Quik

 

So. After reading with rest of page 2 and all of page 3 i propose this. 

 

We get 2 OFFICIAL Backup simmer who get paid 1 TPE per sims they do.

 

We make a sim schedule. If there isent a sim at 9pm Eastern Standard Time backup can swoop in and sim it. Regardless if the real simmer has said amything or not. This eliminates the "sudden life changes" and simmers don't have to stress about simming.

 

We also start streaming the sims. Weather its everyone or just backups I dont care.

 

Now. Before you say "this happens once or twice" yes. It does. With this we dont have to have it happen ever. And having the two OFFICIAL backup simmer dont have to work if Devise and Beke can do their job at 9pm EST or earlier. And they dont get paid.

 

Problem solved. Any other questions?

[gorlab 4,321]

I haven't read any of this thread, but I'll sum up the reality of the situation:

 

 

simmers 99% of the time: Woe is me, this job is so hard and i dedicate so much time and effort to the community without any appreciation. People constantly demanding sims and having no patience. You're all lucky I even continue doing this for you.

 

simmers when multiple simmers, or a new simmer, is suggested:  No. Absolutely not. How dare you even suggest such a thing.

Edited June 15, 2020 by gorlab

[Beketov 8,642]

7 hours ago, BigTittySmitty said:

I want to say one word to you, just one word:  schedule

Not counting off-season an average season is 6 weeks, that’s 42 straight days of sims. We can’t miss a day, we can’t miss a signing, we can’t miss a trade, we can’t miss a line change. For the most part we still do it at the same time each day, every day, 42 days in a row. All we’re asking for is a tiny bit of flexibility to choose what time it happens during the day because our lives aren’t perfect and I can’t say with certainty that I can aim at the exact same minute 42 days in a row.

 

Personally that’s why this framework is bothersome to see. It’s not that I’m against consistency it’s that the idea that we are expected to do a perfect job 42 days in a row, have a week or two off, then repeat endlessly is perfectly fine. If we don’t do that, if god forbid life happens and something gets missed then we are single handedly responsible for members leaving. I don’t think anyone is trying to make that case but that’s 100% how it’s coming across.

 

A schedule for me doesn’t seem necessary. We tend to aim around the same time each day, if someone asks it’s easy to say “usually around 6.” People don’t need a 100% set answer because life doesn’t always allow for that. I am fine having a more set deadline time for a backup to come on but if that’s 9PM EST (for example) we need to make sure that the backup is someone west coast because having someone’s job be to stare at the forum into the night every single day doesn’t make sense.

[hylands 838]

Whilst a set time every day for sims is probably a bit unrealistic, I think having some sort of a deadline would be the perfect middle ground solution.

[DMaximus 1,045]

It's a little disturbing to see a VHLM GM raise an issue of concern and then have that concern invalidated by multiple authority members as their first reaction.

To those listening, thank you.

 

I think it's great that this league runs so well that we have the opportunity to find smaller issues and focus on them. Is this a major issue? No. Is it something that can be improved? Yes.

 

[BigTittySmitty 172]

2 hours ago, Beketov said:

Not counting off-season an average season is 6 weeks, that’s 42 straight days of sims. We can’t miss a day, we can’t miss a signing, we can’t miss a trade, we can’t miss a line change. For the most part we still do it at the same time each day, every day, 42 days in a row. All we’re asking for is a tiny bit of flexibility to choose what time it happens during the day because our lives aren’t perfect and I can’t say with certainty that I can aim at the exact same minute 42 days in a row.

 

Personally that’s why this framework is bothersome to see. It’s not that I’m against consistency it’s that the idea that we are expected to do a perfect job 42 days in a row, have a week or two off, then repeat endlessly is perfectly fine. If we don’t do that, if god forbid life happens and something gets missed then we are single handedly responsible for members leaving. I don’t think anyone is trying to make that case but that’s 100% how it’s coming across.

 

A schedule for me doesn’t seem necessary. We tend to aim around the same time each day, if someone asks it’s easy to say “usually around 6.” People don’t need a 100% set answer because life doesn’t always allow for that. I am fine having a more set deadline time for a backup to come on but if that’s 9PM EST (for example) we need to make sure that the backup is someone west coast because having someone’s job be to stare at the forum into the night every single day doesn’t make sense.

 

If not a dedicated schedule.. then maybe an expected by x time. If that doesn't does not pop up on discord/etc at that time. Backup simmer takes over. Remember, there are 2 leagues. You are more consistent with the majors. However, when it comes to retention we need the minors consistent too. GMs/teammates/other avenues of attention are all fine and dandy but if the one thing is set to a random 24 hour 'expectation' of when task completed. Any sane boss would flip their shit at that. My boss would also be reaching out to me seeing I was "late to work twice in less than 10 days" and start asking if there is anything I need or ways to make things easier for me or anyway they can help. The backup sim position with an expected deadline is key.  Sure it's nice with a post in the index thread but that thread gets buried with the game posts plus the majority of folks are using discord and the autobot pulls the scores so let's be honest. Most are looking to the discord bot to grab their team scores and don't look into that thread too. 

 

Those who are new will ask their GM stuff instead of looking/etc to be quite honest. So, when we have the major league sims consistently being done yet the minors we are just told.. "it can be a 24 hour window plus or minus a few hours". The window starts growing and growing as they simply cannot say "we should have sims by xyz time, if not then backup simmer should then be notified or the backup simmer just grabs and goes if available.

 

Please remember when we are issuing these comments that we have 2 simmers who are extremely different in their consistency. The people are just asking for expectations and consistency. 

[Beketov 8,642]

11 minutes ago, BigTittySmitty said:

Remember, there are 2 leagues. You are more consistent with the majors. However, when it comes to retention we need the minors consistent too.

We flip back and forth every season so both leagues are covered and tbh Devise is no less consistent than I am, just on a different schedule.

 

11 minutes ago, BigTittySmitty said:

Sure it's nice with a post in the index thread but that thread gets buried with the game posts plus the majority of folks are using discord and the autobot pulls the scores so let's be honest.

It's pinned so it doesn't get buried and the league has always been run on the forum. If people refuse to use the place where the league is run then that's unfortunate for them but discord isn't built for this kind of thing. Even if we mentioned stuff in there it would be buried in 5 minutes. I think having expectations on simmers is fine but there's a certain degree of expectation on members that you are ignoring here. Saying everything needs to be convenient for everyone except the people taking the time out of their day to do the work is a bit extreme. We do it every single day for ~42 days in a row. No breaks, no time off. I'm not saying it's the hardest job in the world but sometimes stuff is going to come up. I'd expect with anything more strict people would just get more frustrated when things do but it's hard to say because we've never had this level of consistency before.

 

11 minutes ago, BigTittySmitty said:

Please remember when we are issuing these comments that we have 2 simmers who are extremely different in their consistency. The people are just asking for expectations and consistency. 

Again, both of us sim both leagues, we go back and forth. Consistency is there from both of us just slightly different timing. 

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to a more strict "this is when the backup takes over" time, just needs to be something reasonable. If we said 9PM EST for example then I think we would need someone who's west of that time zone. Otherwise it's getting pretty late to be reasonable to say they need to stay up and watch the forum for sims. Personally I've got a family and work full time, I'd be in bed by then since it's 10 for me. You get what I mean?

 

14 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

It's a little disturbing to see a VHLM GM raise an issue of concern and then have that concern invalidated by multiple authority members as their first reaction.

Disagreeing and having a discussion is not invalidating. The discourse from both sides also needs to be considered. 1 missed sim doesn't = a pattern of inconsistency and that alone is rather insulting to walk into and will put up a guard immediately. Let's just remember that everyone is a person with a life on the other end of the screen as well and try to keep this civil.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

I still think you are missing the big point @Beketov... You are consistent when we can say either let's say time a or time b when you sim with a run off chance of shit happens. Devise has been all over the place where we are 24 hours or more between sims. That open window where even when late and gets doubled up is the issue especially for minors retention. But yes, when I say schedule that is the expected completion time of said project. The time of said project can change per day on a weekly cycle to the simmer's daily needs as we don't want people missing the important things in life or get in shit from work. 

 

Managing expectations is critical in my opinion towards retention. Hopefully ya'll and the BOG can come together to work something out. We just want what's best.

[DMaximus 1,045]

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Disagreeing and having a discussion is not invalidating. The discourse from both sides also needs to be considered. 1 missed sim doesn't = a pattern of inconsistency and that alone is rather insulting to walk into and will put up a guard immediately. Let's just remember that everyone is a person with a life on the other end of the screen as well and try to keep this civil.

 

I agree and I think there ultimately has been productive discussion in this thread, which is great.

Invalidating is when there is an outright dismissal of someone's concern. It occurs when someone is told what their saying isn't legitimate and the discussion is not advanced. That did happen by some (thankfully not all) in this thread.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

4 hours ago, gorlab said:

I haven't read any of this thread, but I'll sum up the reality of the situation:

 

 

simmers 99% of the time: Whoa is me, this job is so hard and i dedicate so much time and effort to the community without any appreciation. People constantly demanding sims and having no patience. You're all lucky I even continue doing this for you.

 

simmers when multiple simmers, or a new simmer, is suggested:  No. Absolutely not. How dare you even suggest such a thing.

 

Simmers are really just moms.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

14 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

Simmers are really just Karens.

 

Fixed 

[Enorama 1,980]

15 hours ago, flyersfan1453 said:

For the most part, yes...but going 2 days without sims is not the end of the world.

 

Not the end of the world, but if we can get a daily sim for... what are we giving up really? Like minimal upside, I agree, but 0 downside beyond paying for the extra STHS licenses. $35/2 years times two to guarantee daily sims is absolutely worth it in my eyes. Plus maybe pulling some stress from the current simmers so they don't feel obligated to take time to sim if they truly are too busy.

[Beketov 8,642]

1 minute ago, Enorama said:

 

Not the end of the world, but if we can get a daily sim for... what are we giving up really? Like minimal upside, I agree, but 0 downside beyond paying for the extra STHS licenses. $35/2 years times two to guarantee daily sims is absolutely worth it in my eyes. Plus maybe pulling some stress from the current simmers so they don't feel obligated to take time to sim if they truly are too busy.

The thing that’s being ignored is that we literally have backups in place already. I’m not sure if this is an extra job that’s needed really because we already have them. Devise and I can cover each other and Quik / Josh are on standby. I feel like it’s moreso we need formalized “this is when to step in” guidelines more than we need to add simmers.

 

For example last week I realized that it was super late and I had gotten busy and forgot to sim. I pinged Josh and he did it no problem. We just need to formalize that kind of system so that if I had actually completely forgotten someone would step up immediately.

[Enorama 1,980]

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

The thing that’s being ignored is that we literally have backups in place already. I’m not sure if this is an extra job that’s needed really because we already have them. Devise and I can cover each other and Quik / Josh are on standby.

 

I was responding to flyers who was responding to motza pointing out that Quik and Josh aren't being used, so the idea that we "have them" already is moot.

 

6 minutes ago, Beketov said:

For example last week I realized that it was super late and I had gotten busy and forgot to sim. I pinged Josh and he did it no problem. We just need to formalize that kind of system so that if I had actually completely forgotten someone would step up immediately.

 

Which BTS suggested, as a sort of if sim has not been done by X time, backup steps in.

[Snussu 117]

Why is everyone ignoring my messages smh

[frescoelmo 1,218]

10 hours ago, Dil said:

And why does it make you feel that way?

 

don't tell me what to do

[Quik 4,113]

As has been stated already, we do have backup simmers, and the issue on something like this is more of a communication issue than a having backup simmers. If we get a heads up that sims might be missed, Josh is usually available to cover, as am I. But without it, that means we could be caught in a situation where it's not feasible to cover.

 

My issue with having a deadline for sims and having the backup simmers take over is that it also means that those simmers need to check on the site at that time every day, or else it nullifies the strategy - something I don't feel is fair to tell people they need to be on at a certain time as a "just in case". Especially given the time for a deadline would likely be 9PM ET or later, that's a time where most here are likely going to be spending time with family, significant others, and/or out of the house in general. Not really a time where we can be dictating that people are not only checking the site, but also have their computer and internet access readily available.

 

For example, I got a ping yesterday asking if I could cover the sims, but did not see it until the early morning, at which point the games had already been simmed. It's not often that I don't check in on the boards/discord for extended periods, but it happens from time to time, as I do need to take keep my house in order, as does everyone else here. And even when I do, more often than not I'm not using the laptop that I use to sim.

 

For the most part, Josh and I are available when given a heads up, but if it's something we're not expecting, and this would be the same for any other member that would be named backup simmer, it's hard to implement a schedule for when you have to log in - it has always been, and will always be, the case that real life comes first. As a league, we do our best to accommodate everybody, and sim consistency is better now than it ever has been. I know it's not the answer everyone wants, but it is possible that there will be times when we go a day without sims.

 

The answer might fall right there, in that if there does go a full calendar day without sims, and there has been none by the time the backup logs on the following day, that we pickup from there - but even then, that requires not only knowing that a sim has been missed, but even something as minor as having the laptop/PC readily available to cover if it's not the access point you use for day to day VHLing.

[Baozi 1,635]

Boy good thing ya'll weren't around during my time and we went a week without sims lol and we wondered if something had happened to the simmer.

Edited June 15, 2020 by tfong

[Quik 4,113]

Just now, tfong said:

Boy good thing ya'll weren't around during my time and we went a week without sims lol and we wondered if something had happened to the simmer.

 

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

38 minutes ago, tfong said:

Boy good thing ya'll weren't around during my time and we went a week without sims lol and we wondered if something had happened to the simmer.

 

Jardy going on an extended weekend and then someone having to manually post 4 days worth of games by hand.

[Matt_O 896]

I would agree with this but we barely miss sims so it isn't necessary imo