The VHL Issue that Needs to be Addressed

[BOOM 8,758]

The irony of me saying this, but I hope this gets resolved/a successful conclusion for all involved. 

 

 

[samx 1,173]

2 hours ago, tfong said:

As it as been my mission and that of the Mod Team's since its inception to create a community safe for all genders, races and sexualities, I am always looking towards making things better. We take all reports seriously and deal with situations with the utmost effort while protecting the privacy of individuals. While we do have a ways to go, I want to note that we are continually looking to break down the barriers and ways of "old thought" that made such issues "ok" in passed eras. Ourselves just like everyone else will always be learning, but if we miss something or are caught unawares, I do apologize but know that we too are learning and continually evolving to protect the community.

 

While all staff are available for anyone to speak to about issues, the Mod team is specifically here to help anyone that has been troubled by any such situation so please let us know what is troubling you. Unfortunately we just cannot see everything that transpires nor can we see DMs or certain chats all the time, so we need your assistance and that of others to let us know where we can be better.

 

Any inquiries and issues, anyone feel free can reach out to me or @fishy or @frescoelmo

I appreciate this. But I know people who don't feel comfortable going to any if the current people because they don't feel safe or like they will be judged or not listened to. I'd love to talk about this in more detail not infrong of the entire league.

[samx 1,173]

1 hour ago, Ricer13 said:

Sexual harassment comes in all shapes and forms. Any form of it is completely unacceptable. It should be taken seriously in any situation in life. Whether you play pro sports or play virtual games we need to be considerate of other genders, races and sexualities. Anyone who crosses that line should be disciplined and it should be consistent. People need to learn these things are not okay. I have a wife, 5 sisters and 2 daughters, they shouldn’t have to live in a world not being respected and treated equally. I stand by Sam and the women in this league and support any punishment handed out to those who violate the rules of sexual conduct in this league.

thank you

[bigAL 2,176]

Nuke discord, we’re a forum-only league now. 

[bigAL 2,176]

but for real, consent isn’t hard. It’s reading social cues and responding to people’s wishes. If someone says “don’t say that, it’s creepy”, listen to them. Don’t get defensive, don’t try to explain it, just smile, nod, and stop doing it. It could be the person it’s targeted at saying that, but that’s a harder thing to do for them. If it’s a bystander telling you to stop it, listen to them too. If it’s a mod telling you to stop it, fucking stop it. 
 

In all those cases, you have to put in a bit of thought. “Why did I get told to stop, and what should I do so I don’t get told to stop again in the future?” Watch what other people get told to stop doing, and don’t ever do that thing. Learn from these situations. Once is a mistake, twice is a dumbass, after three it’s a conscious decision to break the rules, and any fighting back against a mod or someone asking you to stop is worse than any of the above. 
 

It’s not about you, and don’t make it about you. No one cares what you meant to do, or why you think they’re wrong to react this way. If you disagree with them, cool, just walk away and don’t interact with them. Clearly you aren’t good friends anyways. 
 

Just: Listen to people. Respect their wishes. Don’t make it about you. Apologize. Learn from experiences. Do better next time. Don’t fight back. 
 

It’s easy. Consent is cool. 

[samx 1,173]

1 minute ago, bigAL said:

but for real, consent isn’t hard. It’s reading social cues and responding to people’s wishes. If someone says “don’t say that, it’s creepy”, listen to them. Don’t get defensive, don’t try to explain it, just smile, nod, and stop doing it. It could be the person it’s targeted at saying that, but that’s a harder thing to do for them. If it’s a bystander telling you to stop it, listen to them too. If it’s a mod telling you to stop it, fucking stop it. 
 

In all those cases, you have to put in a bit of thought. “Why did I get told to stop, and what should I do so I don’t get told to stop again in the future?” Watch what other people get told to stop doing, and don’t ever do that thing. Learn from these situations. Once is a mistake, twice is a dumbass, after three it’s a conscious decision to break the rules, and any fighting back against a mod or someone asking you to stop is worse than any of the above. 
 

It’s not about you, and don’t make it about you. No one cares what you meant to do, or why you think they’re wrong to react this way. If you disagree with them, cool, just walk away and don’t interact with them. Clearly you aren’t good friends anyways. 
 

Just: Listen to people. Respect their wishes. Don’t make it about you. Apologize. Learn from experiences. Do better next time. Don’t fight back. 
 

It’s easy. Consent is cool. 

is there any chance me, blade and crux can have a real conversation with the commishs. obviously we called it out in front of everyone but I'd love to talk in depth about it so you guys can really understand what I'm coming at.

[samx 1,173]

2 hours ago, Spartan said:

A cautious note, you don't have to be a girl to understand that being a dick isn't ok. While I'm sure that you're less than pleased that there isn't someone that identifies as a girl on the staff team, it'd be unfair to say that they don't care about a girl's perspective or experiences and take them seriously. 

When you go through experiences where they don't care. it makes it alot harder to trust it.

[bigAL 2,176]

5 minutes ago, Brewins15 said:

is there any chance me, blade and crux can have a real conversation with the commishs. obviously we called it out in front of everyone but I'd love to talk in depth about it so you guys can really understand what I'm coming at.

The mods would absolutely be better people to talk to, I’m not around gen chat ever anymore, but absolutely yeah we can chat. We’re in the process of re-examining moderation so getting some feedback would be valuable. Let’s DM tomorrow, I’m off to bed ugh I hate euro time 

[samx 1,173]

1 hour ago, Tate said:

Hi everyone,

 

Being that I was at the center of the problem last night, I just want to clarify a few things that were alluded to above.

 

One of the things mentioned by Horcrux was having mods stop the conversation right away, well that happened. I only made one inappropriate comment to Blade last night before it was met with push back, and I did not say anything further to Blade other than how sorry I was and that I hoped she would find it in her heart to forgive me. I felt terrible last night knowing that was how Blade felt and it truly bothered me to my core. I barely slept and my chest is still tight with anxiety because of what happened. I deeply regret making the joke because I greatly enjoyed having Blade as my friend and knowing that she is no longer is such a terrible consequence, just an absolute awful feeling.

 

When I saw this post go up my heart sank because I knew my role in it, and in my defense, context matters:

 

 

 

 

 

Those are just some of the messages you can search for in the VHL discord and there is a lot more in DM's between Blade and I, because for the past two years I have openly (and jokingly) professed my love for Blade on a number of occasions. All of that was meant in good fun as I am a big fan of BladeMaiden as a person and always try to support her as best as I can. I had no idea she was uncomfortable until last night so now that I know, that's that. I understand and accept how she feels. I truly believed at the time that by being playful it would led to Blade and I having a fun back and forth interaction, but I was wrong.

 

I also understand the message in this main post and want to ensure you that I hear you loud and clear. When I logged onto Discord last night for the first time in forever I was just happy to see Blade online. Whatever comment she would have made I would have found a way to twist around into something that I perceived to be playful, because I've always done that with Blade, and Blade only. Like Josh said to me last night, me hitting on Blade was a meme thing, but now it's a no-go.

 

When I messaged Horcrux last night it was to not to play, "woe is me," card but to send this article:

 

https://efl.network/forums/index.php?/topic/20657-top-5-ways-i-would-woo-huddlehussy/

 

Which is also something I wrote in good fun. It's an absolutely ridiculous article but it falls in line with what my perception of fun with Blade was. Perhaps if you could hear me say the words in my voice, instead of reading them, you might feel different? But in the end it doesn't matter. Text is hard to interpret and it's on me to be better in communicating in regards to that. Tough lesson to learn. I am truly sorry Blade. 

 

I'm not looking to debate in the forums and if you wish to DM me, please do.

 

I hope all of you can accept my humble apology as I am genuinely very sorry. 

 

 

 

 

just because someone is okay at one point doesn't mean they always will be. There comes a point where it can cross a line. 

[diacope 1,696]

I love all of you, have a blessed day

[samx 1,173]

5 minutes ago, bigAL said:

The mods would absolutely be better people to talk to, I’m not around gen chat ever anymore, but absolutely yeah we can chat. We’re in the process of re-examining moderation so getting some feedback would be valuable. Let’s DM tomorrow, I’m off to bed ugh I hate euro time 

honestly would like to sit down and chat with anyone in charge because I don't want others to have to deal with what I and multiple others have

[Baozi 1,658]

6 minutes ago, Brewins15 said:

honestly would like to sit down and chat with anyone in charge because I don't want others to have to deal with what I and multiple others have

 

Hello. My door has always been open and will remain open.

[Nykonax 1,564]

4 hours ago, BladeMaiden said:

Well what about nyko calling me a cougar in gen chat, in the middle of when i was asking not to be harassed? Literally we had a member framing me as an aggressor or cougar while i was unable to respond i was so uncomfortable. 

so i literally don't read that chat. I had just read Eno's message right before mine and was making a boomer joke cause i remember like 2/3 years ago he made a bunch of those to you. I also don't know where this painting you as an agressor or flipping blame on you thing is coming from if that's about me? but sorry anyways won't make that joke again.

 

also i dont know how useful BoG representation would be considering every discussion I've been involved in has just been about league mechanics. Not sure it's really a BoG problem tbh, I'd say more blue/mod problem

Edited November 2, 2021 by Nykonax

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

29 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

so i literally don't read that chat. I had just read Eno's message right before mine and was making a boomer joke cause i remember like 2/3 years ago he made a bunch of those to you. I also don't know where this painting you as an agressor or flipping blame on you thing is coming from if that's about me? but sorry anyways won't make that joke again.

 

also i dont know how useful BoG representation would be considering every discussion I've been involved in has just been about league mechanics. Not sure it's really a BoG problem tbh, I'd say more blue/mod problem

Representation and visibility is important in general. People are more likely to respect women and other minorities when they are given responsibility and power.

 

[a_Ferk 766]

33 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

so i literally don't read that chat. I had just read Eno's message right before mine and was making a boomer joke cause i remember like 2/3 years ago he made a bunch of those to you. sorry

 

also i dont know how useful BoG representation would be considering every discussion I've been involved in has just been about league mechanics. Not sure it's really a BoG problem tbh, I'd say more blue/mod problem

Definitely sounds like more of a mod issue

[Devise 4,475]

Regardless of the incident that happened on Discord last night (that sounds like it's being properly investigated by the mods) I did want to echo the sentiments here about a much needed culture shift in the VHL. 

 

There has been some talk privately with Blue from the mod team about some more clearing of the air on the guidelines and standards for moderation. While this is still a work in progress, I do think that the argument that more appropriate representation on the mod team is something we should absolutely consider. Especially as we look examine what is and isn't appropriate behavior from the ground up. Insight from the people who are going to be the most outside of this culture bubble that absolutely does exist on the VHL and has for years seems like a minimum. A starting point to then working on trying to get some of our culture fixed up even more, and hopefully to create a more welcoming community for everyone. 

 

Please don't use this as an opportunity fellow members who like myself are due some of this critique, to dig in your heels and presume we don't have these problems. The "joke" that is our Discord situation can stop being a joke at some point and start cleaning itself up so people don't feel so alienated or uncomfortable spending time chatting there. 

[Frank 5,212]

Time to decrease mod pay.

[fishy 1,757]

I know that I've just had a long, helpful conversation with some folks who have expressed concerns in this thread, but I wanted to make a public comment as well.

 

The mod team is continually working to be the best version that we can be. That means that we welcome constructive feedback that any member has to offer. If you have complaints, thoughts, or suggestions, please, feel free to reach out to any of us mods. I'm always happy to have a conversation with anyone who's willing to be patient and respectful.

 

I understand that reaching out to moderators, especially for people who have been victimized, can be a scary process–especially if you don't have a pre-established relationship with any of us. However, I took the moderator role because I care about the health of this league as well as the comfort and well-being of every member in it. I am happy to serve as a resource for any individual here, and I hope that this sentiment is not overlooked by the fact that words are just words.

 

Fong, Fresco, and I (and hopefully more people soon, pls apply if ur qualified) want to make the VHL better. That's a lot easier when members help us out by bringing things to our attention. If a situation arises, for example, in the discord that you think a mod should be looking at, ping the mod role. That's partially why we have the role in the first place. You can also always DM any of us that are online if you need something.

 

It only takes a few people to make the community feel unwelcoming. Hold your friends accountable, and bring situations to our attention if you feel that they were overlooked. Express your concerns with mods and staff. We are here, in these roles, not because we wanted to be able to meme mute people in the server, but because we want to help create a community that every one can safely enjoy.  

[Acydburn 1,607]

5 hours ago, bigAL said:

Nuke discord, we’re a forum-only league now. 

You would have the support of a lot of the best people. 

[samx 1,173]

3 hours ago, Devise said:

Please don't use this as an opportunity fellow members who like myself are due some of this critique, to dig in your heels and presume we don't have these problems. The "joke" that is our Discord situation can stop being a joke at some point and start cleaning itself up so people don't feel so alienated or uncomfortable spending time chatting there. 

I really like this ending point. This isn't meant to be directly at anyone but rather make everyone self reflect. You may have done something and not known it. maybe you didn't know what you have been doing is wrong. that's fine. own up to it and work to be better that's all I can ask.

[Laine 1,361]

We need to do more to make our female members more comfortable as a part of the league moving forward. It sickens me to hear things like this still going on. I was initially surprised as to why so many female members end up leaving the league or not joining, but it has become clear to me now that this is the reason why. We need a way to deal with this problem and improve the culture across the entire league. Thank you @Brewins15 for having the courage and bringing this forward as well as all of the other female members who can now speak openly for the change they want and the change we need to provide for them.

[samx 1,173]

8 hours ago, Laine said:

We need to do more to make our female members more comfortable as a part of the league moving forward. It sickens me to hear things like this still going on. I was initially surprised as to why so many female members end up leaving the league or not joining, but it has become clear to me now that this is the reason why. We need a way to deal with this problem and improve the culture across the entire league. Thank you @Brewins15 for having the courage and bringing this forward as well as all of the other female members who can now speak openly for the change they want and the change we need to provide for them.

Very well worded. Thank you

[sterling 1,997]

17 hours ago, Tate said:

Hi everyone,

 

Being that I was at the center of the problem last night, I just want to clarify a few things that were alluded to above.

 

One of the things mentioned by Horcrux was having mods stop the conversation right away, well that happened. I only made one inappropriate comment to Blade last night before it was met with push back, and I did not say anything further to Blade other than how sorry I was and that I hoped she would find it in her heart to forgive me. I felt terrible last night knowing that was how Blade felt and it truly bothered me to my core. I barely slept and my chest is still tight with anxiety because of what happened. I deeply regret making the joke because I greatly enjoyed having Blade as my friend and knowing that she is no longer is such a terrible consequence, just an absolute awful feeling.

 

When I saw this post go up my heart sank because I knew my role in it, and in my defense, context matters:

 

 

 

 

 

Those are just some of the messages you can search for in the VHL discord and there is a lot more in DM's between Blade and I, because for the past two years I have openly (and jokingly) professed my love for Blade on a number of occasions. All of that was meant in good fun as I am a big fan of BladeMaiden as a person and always try to support her as best as I can. I had no idea she was uncomfortable until last night so now that I know, that's that. I understand and accept how she feels. I truly believed at the time that by being playful it would led to Blade and I having a fun back and forth interaction, but I was wrong.

 

I also understand the message in this main post and want to ensure you that I hear you loud and clear. When I logged onto Discord last night for the first time in forever I was just happy to see Blade online. Whatever comment she would have made I would have found a way to twist around into something that I perceived to be playful, because I've always done that with Blade, and Blade only. Like Josh said to me last night, me hitting on Blade was a meme thing, but now it's a no-go.

 

When I messaged Horcrux last night it was to not to play, "woe is me," card but to send this article:

 

https://efl.network/forums/index.php?/topic/20657-top-5-ways-i-would-woo-huddlehussy/

 

Which is also something I wrote in good fun. It's an absolutely ridiculous article but it falls in line with what my perception of fun with Blade was. Perhaps if you could hear me say the words in my voice, instead of reading them, you might feel different? But in the end it doesn't matter. Text is hard to interpret and it's on me to be better in communicating in regards to that. Tough lesson to learn. I am truly sorry Blade. 

 

I'm not looking to debate in the forums and if you wish to DM me, please do.

 

I hope all of you can accept my humble apology as I am genuinely very sorry. 

 

 

 

 

[sterling 1,997]

16 hours ago, bigAL said:

Nuke discord, we’re a forum-only league now. 

I hate discord and suggested we kill it a long time ago, but they called me old and senile.

[Beketov 9,032]

9 minutes ago, sterling said:

I hate discord and suggested we kill it a long time ago, but they called me old and senile.

I still haven’t ruled it out.