Founder's Cup Finals GM 6: Houston Bulls vs. Yukon Rush

[Beketov 9,025]

13 minutes ago, Doc Holliday said:

@Beketov look man, from the thread recently I know you're a busy guy, and I know running a site and community like this takes a lot. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I had respect for you as an admin--you seem pretty humble and aware of your limitations. That's great. But this is too much for me. I was so-so on sticking around based on actual league experience, but recent conduct from VHL members has made me never want to come back here. I want you to hear that you're losing a member over the "older internet tolerance" you don't want to ruffle. I'm retiring my player and I won't be coming back unless this community forces its members to do the bare minimum in not using discriminatory language. I hope you can see why that would be valuable to some people who might want to be a part of this community.

As I said, I plan on talking to them. If you want to retire because we aren’t going to ban every member who utters a word you disagree with them quite frankly I’m not going to stop you because I’m not going to do that. We do have a certain level of tolerance that I will not apologize for but quite frankly all I was doing was trying to de-escalate the situation while I didn’t fully have time (given that I’m at work and focussing more on this argument than my job) to devote to talking to the offending parties. I think it a bit ridiculous to leave the league entirely over a single comment but I’m not going to stop you if that’s what you want to do, it’s your choice to make.

[Josh 1,671]

Just for posterity: I'm not homophobic and this wasn't meant to offend anyone. If it did, I apologize.

[Devise 4,475]

Also as a friendly reminder.

 

Not every post that you deem to be offensive has to be reported. This isn't to discourage people from using the report button, but if at all possible we'd appreciate you guys try to work through some of these issues in good faith. While we cannot ascertain the "intent" behind Josh's post, using a slur in replace of other negative connotations is a very common mistake in lots of various social circles. I don't condone it, and I absolutely understand why someone would say they could be offended by it. Either way, there was no hostile action from his post, it wasn't targeted, it was a reaction to events. 

 

I think my issue with the way this was handled was that instead of approaching Josh, it was reported as if it was the most offensive transgression with expectations of serious punishment. Honestly one wouldn't even need to go to Blue for this. Approach Josh. Tell him it offended you privately and I bet you his first response would be "Oh I'm sorry honestly I didn't even realize I'll try to post that less on the boards. My bad." There was zero attempt to let Josh try to realize his error in good faith, and instead it became a dog pile which is impossible for anyone to take seriously considering that the people on each side now had beef to settle. 

[Rayzor_7 741]

@Josh, you are a shit GM and had no right to be in the finals. Congrats on making it this far on a fart in the wind. Hope you're having a big gay old time in Yukon.

 

@FrostBeard, GGWP. You got the cup, go have a giant gay party in Houston for your first cup and two for you personally in the same season!

[Jayrad28 396]

@Doc HollidayJeezus man who pissed in your frootloops?

[73MPL4R 29]

This is just stupid

[Acydburn 1,607]

50 minutes ago, Devise said:

I think my issue with the way this was handled was that instead of approaching Josh, it was reported as if it was the most offensive transgression with expectations of serious punishment. Honestly one wouldn't even need to go to Blue for this. Approach Josh. Tell him it offended you privately and I bet you his first response would be "Oh I'm sorry honestly I didn't even realize I'll try to post that less on the boards. My bad." There was zero attempt to let Josh try to realize his error in good faith, and instead it became a dog pile which is impossible for anyone to take seriously considering that the people on each side now had beef to settle. 

 

This ^^

 

All it did was come off as people being extremely immature and not knowing how to handle a situation. If you want to be treated like an adult, act like an adult, not have a temper tantrum because you got triggered.

 

congrats @FrostBeard

[Doc Holliday 35]

10 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

@Doc HollidayJeezus man who pissed in your frootloops?

 

The guy guys who used the homophobic language, did. I feel like that's pretty clear.

 

Edited, because I somehow accidentally keep letting Bana off the hook. Anyway, don't be an asshole to marginalized groups and you got no beef with me.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Doc Holliday

[Jayrad28 396]

13 minutes ago, Doc Holliday said:

 

The guy guys who used the homophobic language, did. I feel like that's pretty clear.

 

Edited, because I somehow accidentally keep letting Bana off the hook. Anyway, don't be an asshole to marginalized groups and you got no beef with me.

I doubt Josh’s intensions were to hate in the gay community. All he said were 3 words. By no means was he attacking the gay community. Sure, using slang in that way is offensive to certain members of the  Community, but that weren’t his intensions and think you’re just blowing this out of proportion here. We’re all just hear to watch the numbers and sims and have fun with it, I don’t think josh is a gay hating cult leader so I don’t think it’s worth leaving the league over, or attacking him. A better way to deal with it would be to pm him telling him you didn’t like the comment and deal with it that way and if he was still being an ass about it then report it. I think you came in way to strong. you’re just making yourself look like a pushover wuss tbh. 

[Beowoof 13]

7 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

All he said were 3 words

A lot of damage can be done in 3 words. This is no excuse.

 

7 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

Sure, using slang in that way is offensive to certain members of the  Community, but that weren’t his intensions and think you’re just blowing this out of proportion here.

Is it really being blown out of proportion? You don't know Doc's life, you don't know what he's been through.

 

17 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

I don’t think it’s worth leaving the league over

You should read the intolerance and ignorance happening in discord then.

 

 

I have to say, I am shocked at the amount of people defending Josh's behavior. It's literally 2019.

[Jayrad28 396]

5 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

A lot of damage can be done in 3 words. This is no excuse.

 

Yeah but the words werwnt even that bad, there are so many worse things he could’ve said, he was pissed his team lost and probably didn’t think people would get upset about this.

5 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

Is it really being blown out of proportion? You don't know Doc's life, you don't know what he's been through.

 

Mans you don’t know Josh’s life. You’re so quik to judge someone else for saying things without knowing anything about them. 

5 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

 

 

 

 

I have to say, I am shocked at the amount of people defending Josh's behavior. It's literally 2019.

Not defending it. Obviously it’s not acceptable but I don’t think it’s worth taking the mans hobby away. Christ. Someone should say something and give him a slap in the wrist for the first time offence and make sure something like this didn’t happen again

[Doc Holliday 35]

4 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

 

Yeah but the words werwnt even that bad, there are so many worse things he could’ve said, he was pissed his team lost and probably didn’t think people would get upset about this.

 

4 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

Not defending it.

 

5 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

Someone should say something and give him a slap in the wrist for the first time offence and make sure something like this didn’t happen again

If you read what I said, I conceded that a warning would be a perfectly acceptable option. It would be a statement that this sort of conduct isn't acceptable in this community. But clearly, that isn't the case.

[73MPL4R 29]

As others have said, it would've been far better to take it to DMs rather than flooding a game thread with useless crap. Just shut up and move on.

[Beketov 9,025]

1 hour ago, Doc Holliday said:

 

If you read what I said, I conceded that a warning would be a perfectly acceptable option. It would be a statement that this sort of conduct isn't acceptable in this community. But clearly, that isn't the case.

I said several times in here that I would be talking to them later. I’ve literally been at work while trying to deal with all of this so I haven’t had time to get into a deeper conversation. I’m not sure how me saying “I’ll talk to them about this and how it’s not okay” comes off as nothing is going to happen.

[fonziGG 1,068]

Congrats @FrostBeard. Great work from a great GM. Keep it up and I’m excited to see what next season brings!

 

Unlucky @Josh! Sad the fairy tail had to end this way.

 

Also, let’s ignore this shit storm for a great finals performance both teams put in.

Edited November 1, 2019 by fonziGG

[Peace 1,532]

Gay literally has more than one defining meaning. Automatically assuming it's always a homophobic slur is just you contributing to the problem surrounding the word. 

The word has been in the English dictionary for a long time, and it was originally meant to designate people who were bright and carefree - not someone who was attracted to the same sex and preferred sexual intercourse with them. Society turned the word negative, and shame on you for continuing to make it automatically negative - context be damned.

[Doc Holliday 35]

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

I said several times in here that I would be talking to them later. I’ve literally been at work while trying to deal with all of this so I haven’t had time to get into a deeper conversation. I’m not sure how me saying “I’ll talk to them about this and how it’s not okay” comes off as nothing is going to happen.

 

The issue I have with your response is more the "ah well it's just how things are around here." You're allowed to run your league however you want, but I don't want to be a part of a community that is okay with homophobic shit like that being thrown around. I'm not quitting over a single post, but really a characteristic of the community nobody is interested in changing.

[Doc Holliday 35]

5 minutes ago, Peace said:

Gay literally has more than one defining meaning. Automatically assuming it's always a homophobic slur is just you contributing to the problem surrounding the word. 

The word has been in the English dictionary for a long time, and it was originally meant to designate people who were bright and carefree - not someone who was attracted to the same sex and preferred sexual intercourse with them. Society turned the word negative, and shame on you for continuing to make it automatically negative - context be damned.

 

Yes but you and I both know that meaning is antiquated and does not reflect common usage in the 21st century. But let's put that aside. Let's look at Josh's original post. How exactly does "carefree" fit into the sentiment of "This is big gay" in his response to losing in the finals?

 

You're the one who is ignoring context here in order to defend something I think should be indefensible.

[jhatty8 667]

 

just gonna throw this here, these are the only official definitions of "gay"

 

Josh is either using an offensive slang or saying that people who are homosexual are bad. Hopefully this shuts down the dumb "20 meanings" argument.

[Josh 1,671]

5 minutes ago, jhatty8 said:

 

just gonna throw this here, these are the only official definitions of "gay"

 

Josh is either using an offensive slang or saying that people who are homosexual are bad. Hopefully this shuts down the dumb "20 meanings" argument.

 

 

Source: The dictionary.

 

Get over trying to unravel the mystery of using the word gay. It has MANY meanings and really it doesn't matter at this point. Someone was offended, an apology happened.

[Beowoof 13]

A lot of learning happening in this thread

[Dil 1,760]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

 

Source: The dictionary.

 

Get over trying to unravel the mystery of using the word gay. It has MANY meanings and really it doesn't matter at this point. Someone was offended, an apology happened.

tell em big boi

[Devise 4,475]

Locked this thread for the time being. At which point that some others decide it's fine to reopen it will be. 

 

However it should be stated absolutely. Using slurs which have been appropriated to be homophobic, racist, or otherwise considered offensive is obviously not tolerated. The question for debate here isn't whether or not what Josh said was wrong, Josh himself admits that regardless of context he had not considered the offensive nature of what he said. He literally said had he been approached privately he would of even edited his response out of respect to the offense taken. 

 

We do not need further members belittling Doc or any others for taking offense to what was said, not only because that is a pathetic response to something like this, it's wholly inappropriate and wrong. Worse yet, this is a finals game thread for the VHLM so derailing a topic that only loosely related to the subject at hand anyway, meaning I have no issue locking this thread for a myriad of reasons. Seeing a user change his username on Discord to a slur following these events, for example, is exactly the kind of conduct I'd hope the majority of our members are better than, and can objectively regardless of viewpoints on context see how that is an offensive and inappropriate response to the circumstances.