VHL GM Increased Activity Proposal

[McWolf 3,115]

28 minutes ago, Quik said:

This just seems like fast track to member burnout...

having GMs burnout would open spots for the overqualified candidates, though. Discuss.

[McWolf 3,115]

29 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

 

Aren't many GMs already creating weekly point task posts to get their full weekly TPE earnings? The team-specific posts would be claimable as a media spot not an additional requirement on top of a point task. 

Some do. Some make graphics instead. Some make podcasts. Some others just claim welfare. And no, it doesn't make them bad GMs.

 

I'm all for increasing forum activity, but forcing 16 of the most active members to do even more work doesn't seem fair, when we have a couple hundred members that could share that load.

Edited March 23, 2021 by McWolf

[mediocrepony 1,216]

we need a lineup @ i forget who

[.sniffuM 1,741]

10 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

 

Aren't many GMs already creating weekly point task posts to get their full weekly TPE earnings? The team-specific posts would be claimable as a media spot not an additional requirement on top of a point task. 

 

What if you're part of a podcast series? What if your primary way of earning your point task TPE is through graphics? What if you're not a native english speaker and don't want to take the time to formulate something like that every week (among many other reasons people in that scenario may not want to write an article)?

 

I know for myself, having to lock into one specific idea week in and week out is an incredibly easy way to burn out. In the past I tried to do a VHL Hell's Kitchen article series, a VHL-based fantasy action article series, a quick forum-based VHL MMA league, few other things I'm forgetting, and they all died at their various points because I thought about really wanting to keep up on these and decided they were too limiting.

 

I know my experience doesn't speak for everyone, but I'd assume the majority of people don't want to feel like they have to produce highly specific content. I see the merit in your idea but echoing what most have said here, if this were a requirement it'd likely increase the churn of GMs. YMMV

[fishy 1,757]

I understand that the goal here is to kill two birds with one stone: increase forum activity and make the GM job more "prestigious" in a sense by forcing GMs to produce team-specific content.

 

However, on the other hand, this post has been up for an hour and both current and ex-GMs have basically expressed that producing the kind of content you're proposing wouldn't be sustainable. I think they're right - forcing people to write media spots is a great way to fast-track member burnout, just like Quik pointed out. I also think that whoever mentioned the equivalence of forced MSs and career point tasks was right on point. A lot of people on this site already produce content for the TPE: not to really expand their writing abilities, not to roll up with a groundbreaking idea, not because they enjoy writing. I write 550 words on Sunday night, and I get my TPE. I'm active, I'm doing what I need to do to earn at the level I want, and I call it quits. That's not a bad thing, especially considering that I'm still pretty engaged with the league.

 

To add on to the concerns, though, I suppose I can't quite understand why team-specific media spots would be the best option. The point of the VHL is to have fun. That's why we're all here. I'm not here to win or create the best fake player; sure, those are obviously things that make the league more enjoyable, but I think that we all agree that that's not the whole purpose. There are GMs creating content that isn't team-related that the community (including their players!) loves to see. Look at 3PPAO - I'm probably biased because it's one of my favorite podcasts produced for this site - but you have two VHL GMs and one VHLM GM making league-related content that makes sense for them. They're having a good time and demonstrating to their players one great way to be involved with the league, which is an underlying expectation of GMs in the first place.

 

And what's wrong with graphics? Plenty of GMs and AGMs have made player cards (or whatever the hell those things are called), and that makes folks feel like part of the team. That's great. That's what we're aiming for, right? I think that, if this idea were to ever be instituted, you would absolutely have to expand it to all kinds of point tasks.

 

That being said, I don't see a reason why we should be requiring people to produce content when most of them 1) are already producing and sharing content on the forums and 2) don't feel like a team-specific article/graphic/podcast is the best way for them to enjoy the league. One of the great parts about the VHL is that you get to interact with the entire community, not just your team. That means players and GMs outside of your franchise!!! By limiting content to team-specific subjects, you're risking alienating each franchise, which completely defeats the purpose. There are plenty of great things that have and will be done to create a full community that is balanced with team spirit.

 

As long as GMs are doing their actual jobs, including having a good time, then they're doing everything they need to be doing.

[Dom 1,445]

From what I heard, this league used to struggle finding member who wants to be GM. Now that the table has flipped and the position is high in demand, the staff can choose and make sure all the teams are in good hands. Do you really want to change that for some lack of patience from "overqualified" members? 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Domg5

[Dom 1,445]

11 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

What if you're not a native english speaker and don't want to take the time to formulate something like that every week

I 100% agree with this. It personally take me more time than any native english speaker to write a media spot and I do it anyway. But being forced to write 500 words per week always on the same topic is too much for me. Enough for me to stop applying for GM spots.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Domg5

[McWolf 3,115]

12 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

What if you're not a native english speaker and don't want to take the time to formulate something like that every week

Is this a direct jab at me? I swear, my English level has decreased since I joined the league, I don't know what's wrong with me.

[Quik 4,113]

27 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

 

Aren't many GMs already creating weekly point task posts to get their full weekly TPE earnings? The team-specific posts would be claimable as a media spot not an additional requirement on top of a point task. 

 

Creating weekly PTs and having to do a very specific PT every week are not one in the same. What you're suggesting is a very structured format of forcing people to write about their team. That can and will get old fast.

 

24 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

 

The problem is that people don't want a job to be a reporter (and thank you to those of you who do). That makes it very difficult to find people to fill a role if the role is, you have to report on this team.

People want the job of GM. Since that position is in high demand, you can increase the requirements for the job and still have it be a desired position.

 

You also have to take into consideration when the "job" of being a GM starts fulfilling that too intensely. This entire league is meant to be a fun hobby. When it stops becoming fun, it stops becoming worth it. Like Dom said, we used to need to practically beg people to take teams over, so while having a surplus of demand vs. supply is unfortunate for those who are sitting without teams, it's a healthier situation overall for the league, and I'd hope that those who want the job can understand that.

[Gustav 6,407]

3 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

What if you're part of a podcast series? What if your primary way of earning your point task TPE is through graphics? What if you're not a native english speaker and don't want to take the time to formulate something like that every week (among many other reasons people in that scenario may not want to write an article)?

 

I know for myself, having to lock into one specific idea week in and week out is an incredibly easy way to burn out. In the past I tried to do a VHL Hell's Kitchen article series, a VHL-based fantasy action article series, a quick forum-based VHL MMA league, few other things I'm forgetting, and they all died at their various points because I thought about really wanting to keep up on these and decided they were too limiting.

 

I know my experience doesn't speak for everyone, but I'd assume the majority of people don't want to feel like they have to produce highly specific content. I see the merit in your idea but echoing what most have said here, if this were a requirement it'd likely increase the churn of GMs. YMMV

 

Yeah, a bit of a little-known fact is that I briefly joined VSN as a writer. I never actually wrote anything for VSN because I just couldn't make myself want to--even after I specified that I'd really only join if I only wrote things when I wanted to write things and only ever claimed pay for those things in particular. Even the idea of planning my articles and stuff in advance or fitting a schedule was enough for me to lose interest--I never write an article unless I really want to write it, and the idea for said article is something that usually hits me out of nowhere because sitting around and trying to think about ideas never goes well. If I don't have any ideas I just do a graphic or something--a couple weeks ago I even wrote up a wall of text in the EFL because I didn't have any VHL ideas.

 

There have been a few threads about burnout in recent memory--burnout is what happens when something you enjoy turns into something you feel like you have to do, and then it stops being something you enjoy. This sounds like exactly that, as much as I'd do my best to stay with it if it ever became a thing.

 

To be fair, I think the point of this thread wasn't to point fingers or demand that people step down. Behind what's probably ultimately not the best take is a legitimate point--the league deserves the absolute best from its GMs. We've seen franchises in recent memory have all the life sucked out of them because the GM just wasn't around. Regardless of whether or not anyone would agree with any specific example of this I'd give, I'm sure anyone who's been around a bit can think of a few. The league does deserve better, and I agree that people who aren't willing to go above and beyond for their team probably shouldn't be in the most in-demand position there is. But there are better ways to do it than requiring one specific thing where someone can just rattle off game stats and then go inactive for the week. Things like player surveys or performance evaluations would arguably be a lot better in terms of keeping the GM community a group of the best possible candidates.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

1 minute ago, McWolf said:

Is this a direct jab at me? I swear, my English level has decreased since I joined the league, I don't know what's wrong with me.

 

There have been people who really improved in their english by writing VHL media spots (I may be remembering wrong but I believe @der meister is one), and that's awesome. But I've seen in my family how much longer it can take to put things together as a non-native speaker, and I assume there are definitely some people who may feel embarassed or whatever it is about what they write. While I'm sure they would be met with help and encouragement, I ultimately feel things are better when people are allowed to put as much of themselves as they find comfortable into the league, and rigid outlines limit that.

[DMaximus 1,046]

I appreciate all the insight and responses this has received. I think discussions like this are healthy and helpful. 

 

The goal of my idea was to increase forum activity. The current incentive system for all members is currently in place (earning TPE) and it produces the level of forum activity we currently see. Maybe that's good enough and we don't need new ideas to increase forum activity. Maybe there's other ideas to engage everyone to post more in the forum. Maybe my idea can be tweaked, make it less frequent, don't make only a media spot. There's a lot of other possibilities. Maybe just scrap the idea completely. Regardless I hope this conversation can lead to additional ideas for increasing forum activity.

 

Although now it's time for a mid-post twist:

Why even care about the forum if we can engage people and keep them actively updating without relying on the forum? What value does requiring our members to post in the forum actually bring to the community? Especially if that requirement can reduce the member's enjoyment and lead to burnout? 

 

 

 

[Quik 4,113]

4 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

Why even care about the forum if we can engage people and keep them actively updating without relying on the forum? What value does requiring our members to post in the forum actually bring to the community? Especially if that requirement can reduce the member's enjoyment and lead to burnout? 

I...think you're missing the point of what we're all saying. Writing very specific media spots =/= all forum activity. There are other ways to engage on the forums than forcing a sect of the community to write the same thing, week after week.

 

And even talking about moving game discussions to the forums: that's about being inclusive for the members who aren't on discord, which, while it's fewer than it was 2 years ago, is still a group of people who deserve to be a part of the community in the areas they can be.

[Dom 1,445]

I think that one of the things that has proved to work for forum activity is forum games like town of salem. While this is completely non-vhl related, this gets people coming here and posting. Maybe that what people need is a little off-topic motivation? A little break as a friendly community for the only reason of having a good time.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

1 hour ago, frescoelmo said:

Define "overqualified candidates" when most members just claim welfare and share answers to trivia

 

I feel personally attacked.

[FrostBeard 2,049]

Alrighty, so, as an Ex-GM I can lay in my 2 cents. 

I believe that we should never force anyone on forum activity by writing articles - it should always be voluntary and be done with the right mindset as without all that it just becomes something you hate very soon. I believe that when it comes to GM position, it is more about inspiring others than putting a strain on someone to do something they might not want to do. 

Also, when it comes to forum activity in general, I believe it could be improved and yet we are still having a lively forum with many new and aspiring people writing, commenting and enjoying different sides of the content here.  

[Phil 5,119]

In the height of my activity, I used to post a GaME OF THE WEEK in the lockerroom, where I'd recap for the team, what I thought was our best Game of the week. Does anyone remember that?

 

[der meister 3,188]

25 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

There have been people who really improved in their english by writing VHL media spots (I may be remembering wrong but I believe @der meister is one), and that's awesome. But I've seen in my family how much longer it can take to put things together as a non-native speaker, and I assume there are definitely some people who may feel embarassed or whatever it is about what they write. While I'm sure they would be met with help and encouragement, I ultimately feel things are better when people are allowed to put as much of themselves as they find comfortable into the league, and rigid outlines limit that.

 

Not it. My German username is because my first player was Till Lindemann and I wanted to be incognito in the VHL versus my SHL persona, which was a HoFer. But to your larger point, I believe there have been some ESL users who have used the media section to improve. 

[dlamb 1,326]

Add an official "beat reporter" job for each team, dont make the GM do it. Done.

[Spartan 4,402]

Happy to do this, but I'll just be writing "Moscow Moscow Moscow" until I hit 500 words.

[Dom 1,445]

4 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Happy to do this, but I'll just be writing "Moscow Moscow Moscow" until I hit 500 words.

2000 words for 4 weeks?

[McWolf 3,115]

16 minutes ago, dlamb said:

Add an official "beat reporter" job for each team, dont make the GM do it. Done.

LONDON HIRING A BEAT REPORTER HMU

[Spartan 4,402]

15 minutes ago, Domg5 said:

2000 words for 4 weeks?

Hell if it counts, I'm happy to do it.

 

But overall, I think there are better ways to be encouraging members and helping them to post decent quality content on forums, and even to hold GM's to a higher standard. I don't think it's particularly difficult to see if players enjoy playing on a team and under a specific GM. If the primary reason for this discussion is to hold GM's to a high standard, then performance reviews can easily be a thing. I think @Berocka held some sort of poll on his own as well, and that was a nice insight to how people around the league feel about GM's. 

 

If a GM isn't hyping up his own team, there's a problem. If a GM isn't active at all on forums, there's a problem. But to try to implement a very specific PT that every VHL and not VHLM GM has to do seems like a way to cause burnout. I think VHL.com articles doing a "weekly recap" could be fine, but I'd rather encourage one of my players to write that kind of article and get the TPE for it.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Spartan

[hedgehog337 3,483]

9 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I think @Berocka held some sort of poll on his own as well,

 

If only he would put the results to a public eye smh

[diacope 1,696]

I like it, most GMs sit around doing nothing all week anyway and shouldn't even have their positions but that means the active people have to do even more and that's not fair