Is Discord over moderated?

[Moon 550]

I want to bring this to everyone's attention to see if the majority thinks the discord is over-moderated or not. As some of you may have seen or were in fact discussing in VHL General Chat today you might have noticed this topic being brought up. I decided that this poll would be better suited to the forums as it's most likely less to be meme deleted. In several other locker rooms and in private areas of some fringe VHL channels people have made it known that they stay away from discord General because they feel they cannot talk freely or normally.  This is not a unban swearwords and racist remarks poll at all, this is merely a suggestion that we believe we cannot talk freely in General chat without gifs or comments being deleted. Please answer the poll and post your thoughts in the comment of this thread.

 

thank you,

[Vice 265]

Remove discord. Return to forum chat.

[Frank 4,764]

Ban everyone, clean slate. 

[Beketov 8,642]

9 minutes ago, Moon said:

people have made it known that they stay away from discord General because they feel they cannot talk freely or normally.

On the other side of things we’ve had many complaints of the same thing, that people feel they cannot talk freely or normally, because gen chat turns into a toxic hellscape so quickly.

 

So IMO no, it’s not, but simply based on how this post is worded and on people’s usual reaction to anything other than “discord = thunderdome” I expect I’ll be in the minority.

[Spartan 3,997]

#NukeGenChat

[Hogan 1,332]

The vhl is amazingly moderated they caught every single bad thing ive ever done

[Ben 200]

24 minutes ago, Hogan said:

The vhl is amazingly moderated they caught every single bad thing ive ever done

Wellcome back

[Gustav 6,100]

17 minutes ago, Moon said:

This is not a unban swearwords and racist remarks poll at all

 

I think this is something a lot of "stop complaining about moderation" arguments will twist these discussions around to, and that really isn't the point. Yes, I've complained about moderation. But do I want there to be less moderation so I can feel free to be hateful on Discord? No, because I don't open Discord to be hateful. 

 

There are rules and (in general) I don't have a problem with them. But completely inoffensive topics being arbitrarily shut down in the general channel, that's supposed to be for talking about just about anything? And regular members basically being told to shut up and comply if they dare to disagree with that? That crosses a line IMO. 

 

I'm not even going to get deep into the whole yam thing because I wasn't a part of it, but keep in mind as a general statement that the mods are supposed to represent the community. If the entire chat, apart from the mods, is against posting a GIF being a punishable offense, then posting said GIF should not be a punishable offense. When we start seeing clear differences between what we want and what the mods want, the mods are no longer representing us.

 

Personally, I find the social situation in the league server weird as hell. I'm on good terms with just about all of the mods and don't have issues with any of them as individuals. But there are times when I feel that the team as a collective has developed a sort of "I was hired to moderate chat, therefore I need to actively moderate this chat" mindset that I don't remember being there before. We don't need to be told to change the topic of our conversation when all members of said conversation are there voluntarily, the conversation is not hateful, and it is proceeding respectfully. That hurts absolutely no one, and not rushing to get involved with something harmless does not translate to not deserving job pay.

 

And aren't we all supposed to treat each other equally? In general, I find that I am able to see virtually all members of the community, mods included, as equals, and this has given me many positive experiences. But I've seen power trips, I've seen personal grudges, and I've seen rude responses to completely fair questions--all of which go completely unaddressed because the mod team is not held in check. The only way to hold overmoderation in check, really, is for the community to talk about it--which isn't the best because there's no enforcement attached to that. I guess I see it as an unfair power dynamic.

 

I think a lot of what I complained about a few months ago largely pertained to some of the more significant punishments, the ones that make it to the ban thread. And to the mod team's credit, some of those issues have been addressed well. We no longer see "so-and-so has been banned because Code of Conduct and that's it". But the smaller, pettier stuff that happens on Discord never changed, and it remains perfectly valid to speak against that. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Beketov said:

On the other side of things we’ve had many complaints of the same thing, that people feel they cannot talk freely or normally, because gen chat turns into a toxic hellscape so quickly.

 

One thing I don't like is that genchat is a bit cliquish and there have been times when new members have joined and been basically ignored because everyone else just keeps talking about whatever else. In that situation, I'm fine with people being told to take their convo somewhere else while the new person is welcomed. But, to use an example of something that happened to me, if I start talking about music, and nobody new joins, and nobody takes exception to it (not that anybody should), I don't need to be told I can't talk about that in genchat or that I'm getting in the way of other people (who aren't attempting to talk about anything else). And if I ask why, I don't need to be told that I should just shut up and do it. That's the kind of thing I don't appreciate.

 

So yeah, I'm sure there will be some agreement/disagreement here, but that's fine. I believe in anyone's right to express an opinion, even if your opinion is that you hate my opinion.

[CowboyinAmerica 2,708]

1 hour ago, GustavMattias said:

I'm not even going to get deep into the whole yam thing because I wasn't a part of it, but keep in mind as a general statement that the mods are supposed to represent the community. If the entire chat, apart from the mods, is against posting a GIF being a punishable offense, then posting said GIF should not be a punishable offense. When we start seeing clear differences between what we want and what the mods want, the mods are no longer representing us.

 

So I'm one of those who doesn't go into Gen Chat - really a combination of it not being my thing and feeling like I've aged out of it a bit, frankly. But I did want to push back on this point, because I actually really disagree with it. It's an issue that places like Reddit fall into often, where embracing a fully democratized version of moderation will start to self-select your sample towards the extremes. If you have a loud group of people arguing that a GIF shouldn't be a punishable offense, in many cases those who argue that it should be moderated won't care enough to fight the loud voices. They'll simply stop coming. Which makes it seem even more that there's an overwhelming majority, when it's actually just that you've weeded out the other side. And when you get enough of those people who opt out rather than caring to argue, then it gets to be much more of a cliquish view than what you've got right now.

 

That's why there needs to be some other standard to compare against than simply "democracy rules," and IMO from what I've seen the VHL's mods do a solid job at comparing to the existing code.

[comrade cat 258]

2 hours ago, Hogan said:

The vhl is amazingly moderated they caught every single bad thing ive ever done

pff they never caught me!

[Baozi 1,635]

I abstained my vote to see the results.

 

One of the things that people complain about is gifs and what gets moderated as "spam". I mean there is an actual channel where you can spam gifs and such in #thunderdome though and I don't know why people don't just go mess around in there.

 

Genchat is supposed to be a place of discussion and just people hanging out (in my mind) but I'm in mind to have it operate as what people feel a general chat should be (barring offensive material ofc).

Edited February 4, 2022 by Baozi

[Gustav 6,100]

40 minutes ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

So I'm one of those who doesn't go into Gen Chat - really a combination of it not being my thing and feeling like I've aged out of it a bit, frankly. But I did want to push back on this point, because I actually really disagree with it. It's an issue that places like Reddit fall into often, where embracing a fully democratized version of moderation will start to self-select your sample towards the extremes. If you have a loud group of people arguing that a GIF shouldn't be a punishable offense, in many cases those who argue that it should be moderated won't care enough to fight the loud voices. They'll simply stop coming. Which makes it seem even more that there's an overwhelming majority, when it's actually just that you've weeded out the other side. And when you get enough of those people who opt out rather than caring to argue, then it gets to be much more of a cliquish view than what you've got right now.

 

That's why there needs to be some other standard to compare against than simply "democracy rules," and IMO from what I've seen the VHL's mods do a solid job at comparing to the existing code.

 

I can see where you're coming from and I don't completely disagree with it--I don't expect league policy to change to exactly what I want just because I talk about it a lot. That also applies to situations where a few loud idiots are being loud idiots (which probably does apply to the yam thing, whether or not you or I agree with how it's being handled).

 

The larger point I was trying to make--and I probably could have expressed it more clearly--is that while forum moderation has improved in that it's become more consistent and transparent, Discord moderation has stayed exactly the same and has many of the same issues that much of the community expressed a while ago. You're free to apply the "few loud idiots" label to that as you wish, of course, but I question where the line is drawn between "a few loud idiots" and "the community in general sees an issue they want to change". Votes are currently pretty split, so I'd imagine different people would see this different ways.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Baozi said:

One of the things that people complain about is gifs and what gets moderated as "spam". I mean there is an actual channel where you can spam gifs and such in #thunderdome though and I don't know why people don't just go mess around in there.

 

What constitutes spam, though? I've seen people be told to move out of genchat for bringing up music, movies, NHL news, food, and many other completely harmless topics that aren't hurting anyone. Sure, if someone wants to straight-up spam, as in, say, repeatedly post the yam GIF with no context to the surrounding conversation, then I can understand telling people to take it to the thunderdome. But I've also seen a lot that really isn't spam get classified as such for no good reason. Like, imagine if someone locked this thread because it was posted in the suggestion section rather than the general discussion one.

 

32 minutes ago, Baozi said:

Genchat is supposed to be a place of discussion and just people hanging out (in my mind) but I'm in mind to have it operate as what people feel a general chat should be (barring offensive material ofc).

 

I guess I'm confused as to where the difference lies between "just people hanging out" and "what people feel a general chat should be", because to me those are the same thing. Also, going back to this:

 

35 minutes ago, Baozi said:

I don't know why people don't just go mess around in there.

 

Conversation when just hanging out should be spontaneous and flow freely. I'm not going to say "I'm going to respond to something Beav said by making a meme about it but let me go take it to the thunderdome", and neither is anyone else. Unless it's regulated to the extent that nobody wants to be there, people will always mess around in genchat and that will devolve into stupid running jokes/memes/whatever naturally. 

[v.2 1,260]

Just disable gifs in gen chat if that's the issue.

[Baozi 1,635]

6 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

What constitutes spam, though? I've seen people be told to move out of genchat for bringing up music, movies, NHL news, food, and many other completely harmless topics that aren't hurting anyone. Sure, if someone wants to straight-up spam, as in, say, repeatedly post the yam GIF with no context to the surrounding conversation, then I can understand telling people to take it to the thunderdome. But I've also seen a lot that really isn't spam get classified as such for no good reason. Like, imagine if someone locked this thread because it was posted in the suggestion section rather than the general discussion one.

 

So the yam one, was repeatedly asked not to post prior, because people were just randomly posting. So I feel that doesn't apply to this situation, but spamming gifs/images is basically just if people are trying to have a conversation but the gifs/images being posted are disrupting the conversation (either due to frequency or irrelevance)..

 

 

8 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

I guess I'm confused as to where the difference lies between "just people hanging out" and "what people feel a general chat should be", because to me those are the same thing. Also, going back to this:

 

I mean I'm fine with general chat being used for literally any kind of discussion. I mean I use it as such and when people ask me to move then I move. Its not a big deal to me. I also supported this poll going up to more or less have people discuss what they want out of a general chat. Like do you want a more "league related" chat? or just a super off topic chat? Thats why I abstained.

 

9 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

Conversation when just hanging out should be spontaneous and flow freely. I'm not going to say "I'm going to respond to something Beav said by making a meme about it but let me go take it to the thunderdome", and neither is anyone else. Unless it's regulated to the extent that nobody wants to be there, people will always mess around in genchat and that will devolve into stupid running jokes/memes/whatever naturally. 

 

To me any kind of memeing should be in thunder, it literally is what its listed as such for. To me the conversation if it was supposed to be memeing, should've began in there to begin with.

 

[Baozi 1,635]

Just now, v.2 said:

Just disable gifs in gen chat if that's the issue.

 

I was actually wanting to see what it looks like when i do it that way.

 

I wouldn't mind separating like a genchat and "off topic" chat tbh.

[Baozi 1,635]

Actually upon reflection. Almost all issues stem from gifs/images/memes.

 

So I mean people can have pretty easy conversations barring anything offensive as long as those aren't used so what If i just turn it off and people just wouldn't even have issues with those kinds of conversations? Like I've never really seen a text only conversation turn into something super stupid barring offensive words or text being used.

 

That means less problems pop up, less moderating done, so less moderation in general.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Baozi

[Gustav 6,100]

1 minute ago, Baozi said:

I mean I'm fine with general chat being used for literally any kind of discussion. I mean I use it as such and when people ask me to move then I move. Its not a big deal to me. I also supported this poll going up to more or less have people discuss what they want out of a general chat. Like do you want a more "league related" chat? or just a super off topic chat? Thats why I abstained.

 

I actually don't mind your idea of specifying a league-related channel to clear that question up, but I'd suggest going the other way on the naming--leave general as is and keep it open to any topic while introducing #vhl-related-only or something (just to avoid messing with the channel most people already use).

 

8 minutes ago, Baozi said:

To me any kind of memeing should be in thunder, it literally is what its listed as such for. To me the conversation if it was supposed to be memeing, should've began in there to begin with.

 

I disagree with this (especially since the thunderdome is an 18+ channel and would restrict a lot of conversation from a good chunk of the league if used entirely as you'd like), but I've given my opinion here and I don't have much else to add to it.

[Gustav 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Baozi said:

Actually upon reflection. Almost all issues stem from gifs/images/memes.

 

So I mean people can have pretty easy conversations barring anything offensive as long as those aren't used so what If i just turn it off and people just wouldn't even have issues with those kinds of conversations? Like I've never really seen a text only conversation turn into something super stupid barring offensive words or text being used.

 

That means less problems pop up, less moderating done, so less moderation in general.

 

...you probably know how I feel about this one so I won't write a media spot in response.

 

In short--there are lots of entirely inoffensive pictures posted in genchat, and I don't support punishing the many to solve the issue of a few. 

 

tbh if all that changes as a result of the "is moderation going too far" discussion is Discord becoming more moderated and the community having less freedom to do as they wish, I'll be very disappointed.

[Baozi 1,635]

3 hours ago, GustavMattias said:

In short--there are lots of entirely inoffensive pictures posted in genchat, and I don't support punishing the many to solve the issue of a few. 

 

See this is what always gets me. I mean yes a few rotten apples spoil the barrel type issue. But then the issue should be, instead of being mad at us, you should be mad at the people spoiling the barrel. I mean rather than forcing us to make rules and moderate, why can't social pressure be on those few be used so that they stop being the problems?

[Gustav 6,100]

21 minutes ago, Baozi said:

See this is what always gets me. I mean yes a few rotten apples spoil the barrel type issue. But then the issue should be, instead of being mad at us, you should be mad at the people spoiling the barrel. I mean rather than forcing us to make rules and moderate, why can't social pressure be on those few be used so that they stop being the problems?

 

The issue I have with this is that it assumes that the entire barrel is spoiled. The fact that there's an occasional picture that we'd prefer not to have in genchat doesn't mean that we have a problem with pictures as a whole and need to ban them.

 

I agree that if something truly unacceptable is posted, then it is on anyone to call it out. But the difference there lies in what I mentioned earlier about the differences I perceive between what the community and the mod team (at times) deems unacceptable. For example--and not to keep circling back to one recent thing, because I think that tends to deviate things to a talk about only that one thing, but--I think the yam GIF is a bit stupid, but it doesn't offend me and I don't personally care if someone posts it. If anyone thinks I'm going to tell someone to shut up over it and try to pressure someone into acting differently, I think that's unrealistic. Of course, if someone posts something I consider genuinely offensive, I don't consider myself above speaking against it. I'm just not going to (unofficially, too) try to enforce a standard I don't fully agree with.

[v.2 1,260]

[BOOM 8,408]

If even I can be retrained, it can't be that difficult to refrain from posting dumb shit. 

[jRuutu 2,303]

VHL started as a community where brilliant minds from all over the world came together to create meaning. The people creatively used language to entertain each other. Discussions flowed from one topic to another, from serious to not so serious. Pictures and GIF's were used to enhance the interactions. Despite thousands of miles between the users, they were still able to understand each other. How nice, how beautiful. At the heart of it all was a performance. The people came together knowing very well that anything could happen.  A conversation could start with something and then lead to something different. What seemed to be a decent conversation about ice cream could then be railed into new paths by clever use of a GIF. Users were there for it. People could jump in the middle of a conversation and talk about something else. Users were there for it. Idiotic behavior that seemed to have no point took attention away from the league itself. Users were there for it. The users were not interested in the conventional structures of conversation. The users wanted to be free and use unconventional methods and techniques.

 

At one point things changed. The BOG and the suits in blue noticed the good people of VHL were having too much fun. There was no place for a clever and nuanced discussion about books and favorite ice creams. VHL general looked like a place of chaos. VHL general intimidated those who never dared to color outside the lines. The BOG and the suits in blue decided it was time for a change. There is no way VHL general can be a place of chaos. VHL general must be a place for peaceful discussion, where users are polite to the extreme and apologize for doing something that would be considered rude in real-life conversation. So the BOG and suits in blue hired moderators. Experts in fun. Experts in conversation. Experts in performance.

 

These moderators were ordered to bring peace and calm to the VHL general. To show the good people of VHL that moderators know what they are doing they created rules that allowed them to judge each situation differently. What sounded like a fair idea quickly turned out to be everything but fair as decision-making was affected by the time of the day and whether the moderators themselves had just done swearing 84 times in a podcast. If enough time had gone by since the latest podcast episode, the good people of VHL knew it was only a matter of time before the moderators rode into VHL general with their high horses. The conversation in VHL general is stifled by the moderators and the rules. Future is not as bright as the past. The good people of VHL still fight back, one post at a time.

[Baozi 1,635]

11 hours ago, GustavMattias said:

The issue I have with this is that it assumes that the entire barrel is spoiled. The fact that there's an occasional picture that we'd prefer not to have in genchat doesn't mean that we have a problem with pictures as a whole and need to ban them.

 

I mean you realize that throughout time all systems of governance operate this way right? You make rules that only 1% of people break because you need to stop them, even though it punishes the 99% of the others. Like masking or lockdowns or any other public measure of sorts.

 

Even something like speeding. Its to prevent the bad drivers from speeding and killing people, even though speeders can be very safe/good drivers that have never harmed anyone.

 

That is why the general public (now) in this "cancel culture" has resolved to using public pressure against individuals that aren't breaking the law but are being "karens" or otherwise skirting the rules.

 

Just saying if general public does the same here and self policies its own troublemakers, then rules would never be constructed. The alternative is, well if you can't control yourselves, then we have to make rules for the 1% people ruining for everyone else.

 

Hence the saying "This is why we can't have nice things."

[Baozi 1,635]

7 hours ago, jRuutu said:

VHL started as a community where brilliant minds from all over the world came together to create meaning. The people creatively used language to entertain each other. Discussions flowed from one topic to another, from serious to not so serious. Pictures and GIF's were used to enhance the interactions. Despite thousands of miles between the users, they were still able to understand each other. How nice, how beautiful. At the heart of it all was a performance. The people came together knowing very well that anything could happen.  A conversation could start with something and then lead to something different. What seemed to be a decent conversation about ice cream could then be railed into new paths by clever use of a GIF. Users were there for it. People could jump in the middle of a conversation and talk about something else. Users were there for it. Idiotic behavior that seemed to have no point took attention away from the league itself. Users were there for it. The users were not interested in the conventional structures of conversation. The users wanted to be free and use unconventional methods and techniques.

 

At one point things changed. The BOG and the suits in blue noticed the good people of VHL were having too much fun. There was no place for a clever and nuanced discussion about books and favorite ice creams. VHL general looked like a place of chaos. VHL general intimidated those who never dared to color outside the lines. The BOG and the suits in blue decided it was time for a change. There is no way VHL general can be a place of chaos. VHL general must be a place for peaceful discussion, where users are polite to the extreme and apologize for doing something that would be considered rude in real-life conversation. So the BOG and suits in blue hired moderators. Experts in fun. Experts in conversation. Experts in performance.

 

These moderators were ordered to bring peace and calm to the VHL general. To show the good people of VHL that moderators know what they are doing they created rules that allowed them to judge each situation differently. What sounded like a fair idea quickly turned out to be everything but fair as decision-making was affected by the time of the day and whether the moderators themselves had just done swearing 84 times in a podcast. If enough time had gone by since the latest podcast episode, the good people of VHL knew it was only a matter of time before the moderators rode into VHL general with their high horses. The conversation in VHL general is stifled by the moderators and the rules. Future is not as bright as the past. The good people of VHL still fight back, one post at a time.

 

Maybe stop living in the past