Can we have a constructive conversation about the BoG?

[fishy 1,757]

If you’ve accessed the forums one time in the past month, you’re probably aware of the fact that community members have… feelings about the Board of Governors. I’ve stayed pretty quiet about it because I’m not one to (publicly) complain without supplying a solution. I’m coming to realize that there isn’t a clean solution for the controversy, and that’s one thing. On the other hand, though, I don’t think that means that we should collectively give up on trying to push for a better system.

 

I get sick of mindless complaining pretty quickly. I’m really bored and kind of irritated with the fact that this a conversation that rory has brought up (albeit not gracefully) on multiple occasions and met with a “fuck off” kind of attitude. He started his thread about changing award voting, and while some members were fully on board, others were ready to kick it to the dirt and call him a troll. Yeah, I think we all agree that he’s kind of a troll icon of our VHL generation, but I also think he brings up good points that are being blatantly ignored because of how they’ve been presented.

 

I’m taking it upon myself to try to start an actual, constructive conversation about the Board of Governors. I’ll say this now: I want to trust the BoG. I want this structure to work, and I think that having the BoG is a really valuable component of the league’s success. I think that, in a perfect world, the BoG is making decisions about the league for the league.

 

As it currently stands, from the perspective of a member of this community, I don’t feel that the BoG is doing all that they can to put members at ease. I can’t find public information about much of anything BoG-related, and that’s frustrating for me. The Board of Governors isn’t mentioned in the rule book, there’s no information about how many people can sit on the BoG, nor how they are selected, nor what kind of topics/issues the BoG sees. I’ve had the chance to ask these kinds of questions to Quik, who kindly gave me general information, but I have trouble accepting that this isn’t publicly shared. I would love to see an announcement made, at least for future reference, sharing what the BoG is there for, what they do, and who is part of it. (Yes, I know, BoG members are listed on the staff page and there is a running thread of current members. That’s not my point.)

 

A big issue with the Board of Governors as it currently stands is the lack of transparency. We don’t know what’s being discussed in that space; we don’t know what suggestions/complaints are being considered; we don’t know how decisions about awards are made; we don’t know how people become part of the BoG. None of this information is shared until requested. It’s been made clear that this information, to an extent, is available to people who ask; this tells me that there is, realistically, no good reason why it can’t be shared in a more accessible manner. Advantage, for a while, was giving the league Board of Governor updates - I, personally, really appreciated those. It gave me the illusion of being in the loop, and I think that was a really good step toward a more transparent future.

 

-----

 

So what can we do moving forward?

 

First, we bring back the Board of Governors updates. I don’t know if that was a VSN initiative or what, but it could be as simple as “we talked, we discussed x, y, and z.” I respect that the community at large doesn’t need to know everything being discussed among the Board of Governors (even though that’s pretty much how it is in government bodies).

 

I think the concern with updates, from what I understand from BoG members, is that they discuss topics that don’t always come to fruition. Sharing those discussion topics may unnecessarily start fires among members regardless of whether they are put into place or not. Until we, as a community, can trust the Board of Governors, they’re going to continue to feel the need to protect themselves and the conversations they’re having. It’s gotten to the point where the Board of Governors exists as a secretive entity whose public and front-facing responses to things are simply, “we’ve talked about that already.”

 

Reinstating the updates will help members of the community understand why the BoG makes decisions that they do. Advantage’s format where there is a summary of topics that were discussed was great. When decisions are made that require a vote, release a statement with the voting results. (I am acknowledging that releasing who voted for what could be dangerous territory for now. Voter count would suffice until the league feels that they can trust the BoG and vice versa).

 

These updates could also be structured as current issues that the Board is working to resolve. For example, a short update about why increased forum activity has been a recent push, how they plan to attack the issue, and what successful completion of the goal would look like could help not only general members, but also the Board members themselves understand what exactly they’re working toward. It gives strategic checkpoints that are public and provide a record of issues to address for future members.

 

Starting a thread for each season where BoG members (or a designated public relations person) can share what’s happening would be perfect. Create a new thread for each season. If it sees two posts in a single season, fine. It doesn’t need to be elaborate.

 

Second, the BoG includes the general VHL community in the decision making of who sits on the Board. As it currently stands, the Board of Governors main service is to the league, not the users. They make decisions based on what they feel is best for the league, which is brilliant, but they completely exclude the rest of the community their decision affects.

 

With that being said, since there is no information about how members become part of the Board, I’d like to see them implement a sort of league-wide approval system for individuals joining. (I am adding a clarification that this is not directed at the two most recent inductions. I have full confidence that Cow and Al will be brilliant voices to have in the conversation.) What I’m NOT proposing is a situation where the community suggests individual members to join. I am, however, suggesting that someone (probably a Commissioner) post a poll on whether or not to add a member. It’d be a simple yes/no poll. Easy peasy.

 

Third, we create a resource answering the questions I mentioned earlier - what the BoG is, what their purpose is, etc. It doesn’t need to be extensive, but something accessible on the forums is immensely better than having to reach out to individual members and ask.

 

-----

 

A common complaint I hear is that we first-gens don’t know the whole story. That’s true. I don’t know VHL history as well as long-term members do, and I’m not saying that I personally have any intention of digging through the forum to see if a specific issue has been discussed. However, I am a current active member who sees a flaw in the system as it currently works. I don’t care about how well the BoG worked in the past. I care about how it’s working now.

 

That’s not to say that the history of the VHL is unimportant. Long-standing members should absolutely maintain their places on the Board, as their voices are valuable to the forward movement of the league. I also acknowledge that there has been a recent push to add more newer members, like BigAL, to increase the variety of voices that can speak in that space. Optimally, there’s a balance between members who have been with the VHL for a long time and members who haven’t. Differing perspectives are deeply valuable, and I think the BoG is going to greatly benefit by bringing on newer members.

 

-----

 

I’m not here to start a fight. I’m also not here just to stir shit up. I’m here to start a constructive conversation about the Board of Governors that we’ve not been able to start recently. I want the Board of Governors to work, but right now, it’s not. That’s okay as long as we’re working together as a community to push it to be the best that it, and we, can.

 

If there are resources like those that I’ve suggested that already exist, please drop a link. I’m here with the intention to learn and make better - if that’s what I’m going to request from the Board of Governors, then that has to be my practice as well. With that being said, I’m also requesting that non-BoG members give the group a chance. The meme is funny, nuke the bog blah blah blah, but this post isn’t the place for it. Help me push a step forward so that we, together, can be the best version of our silly little simulation hockey league that we can.

 

1538 words, claiming weeks ending 4/4, 4/11, and 4/18

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by fishy

[Bobo 514]

BoG needs to be for the community! Have more polls for new features, so that the members of the community have a say in what they do/don’t want to see.

[McWolf 3,115]

13 minutes ago, fishy said:

I am, however, suggesting that someone (probably a Commissioner) post a poll on whether or not to add a member. It’d be a simple yes/no poll. Easy peasy.

Feelings will be hurt.

[DMaximus 1,046]

Well I guess this is just going to be a day of unpopular takes for me.

I think the BoG should be abolished or at least drastically downsized. There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members.

 

The difficulty with the transparency request is that the entire reason for the existence of the BoG is to not have transparency.  The BoG allows a select group of members to have private discussions on topics of their choosing, that's what the BoG does. Forcing transparency destroys that.

 

If the board continues to exist, I like your suggestion of much more clearly defined roles for the BoG and commissioners, like how is a final decision made? What happens if the commissioners and board disagree on a decision? How is that conflict resolved? How does the BoG decide what topics to vote on? Do they vote on topics? When do they vote? How can the community suggest topics to be voted on?

Things like that need to be explicitly stated somewhere. 

 

If the board does remain, it's main reason for existing should be for long term planning, goal setting, and assessment on how the league is doing. The board should give us something to strive for and a bit of a roadmap. Not debating day-to-day decisions Leave the actual decisions to the commissioners. 

[Advantage 2,891]

People act like they want transparency and then complain when it gets posted.

 

I still post the BOG updates but since they were unpaid I moved them to VSN.  They aren't regular either since there isn't always enough to fill an article each and every week.

[Advantage 2,891]

23 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

Well I guess this is just going to be a day of unpopular takes for me.

I think the BoG should be abolished or at least drastically downsized. There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members.

 

The difficulty with the transparency request is that the entire reason for the existence of the BoG is to not have transparency.  The BoG allows a select group of members to have private discussions on topics of their choosing, that's what the BoG does. Forcing transparency destroys that.

 

If the board continues to exist, I like your suggestion of much more clearly defined roles for the BoG and commissioners, like how is a final decision made? What happens if the commissioners and board disagree on a decision? How is that conflict resolved? How does the BoG decide what topics to vote on? Do they vote on topics? When do they vote? How can the community suggest topics to be voted on?

Things like that need to be explicitly stated somewhere. 

 

If the board does remain, it's main reason for existing should be for long term planning, goal setting, and assessment on how the league is doing. The board should give us something to strive for and a bit of a roadmap. Not debating day-to-day decisions Leave the actual decisions to the commissioners. 

So your idea is to basically just have it be blue team and abolish bog? So have even less people represent the wide population of our league.

 

This isn't a corporation and shouldn't be treated as one.

[McWolf 3,115]

25 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

Well I guess this is just going to be a day of unpopular takes for me.

I think the BoG should be abolished or at least drastically downsized. There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members.

 

The difficulty with the transparency request is that the entire reason for the existence of the BoG is to not have transparency.  The BoG allows a select group of members to have private discussions on topics of their choosing, that's what the BoG does. Forcing transparency destroys that.

 

If the board continues to exist, I like your suggestion of much more clearly defined roles for the BoG and commissioners, like how is a final decision made? What happens if the commissioners and board disagree on a decision? How is that conflict resolved? How does the BoG decide what topics to vote on? Do they vote on topics? When do they vote? How can the community suggest topics to be voted on?

Things like that need to be explicitly stated somewhere. 

 

If the board does remain, it's main reason for existing should be for long term planning, goal setting, and assessment on how the league is doing. The board should give us something to strive for and a bit of a roadmap. Not debating day-to-day decisions Leave the actual decisions to the commissioners. 

In that scenario where the BoG is killed, do you picture a handful of people taking literally every decision? Or is it more of a every member of the league is involved, league wide democracy?

[Gustav 6,414]

I really appreciate that this post is actually written in a civil manner (unlike many, many others over my time here), and seeing as it is I feel it's fair to respond to it as completely and accurately as possible (because I have nothing better to do with my time at the moment).

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, fishy said:

As it currently stands, from the perspective of a member of this community, I don’t feel that the BoG is doing all that they can to put members at ease.

 

I think this is pretty difficult to do when a lot of what happens tends to be met with trolling or false accusations of doing things purely for our own benefit. However, I understand that you're not one of the people doing that, so I'm not going to blow this off as "we literally cannot talk about what we're doing" (even though at times it can feel like that's the case). 

 

 

44 minutes ago, fishy said:

A big issue with the Board of Governors as it currently stands is the lack of transparency. We don’t know what’s being discussed in that space; we don’t know what suggestions/complaints are being considered; we don’t know how decisions about awards are made; we don’t know how people become part of the BoG. None of this information is shared until requested. It’s been made clear that this information, to an extent, is available to people who ask; this tells me that there is, realistically, no good reason why it can’t be shared in a more accessible manner. Advantage, for a while, was giving the league Board of Governor updates - I, personally, really appreciated those. It gave me the illusion of being in the loop, and I think that was a really good step toward a more transparent future.

 

Is there anything other than transparency that you feel is an issue? You mentioned bringing back the updates--that's not something I disagree with at all. I will say that the updates were very well-done and, in fact, provided just about all the private information there was without giving away anything that was supposed to be kept secret or selling out who was saying what specifically to open the door to attacks or harassment. In my opinion there wasn't really a better way to structure the update threads--and I can see why they'd be a valuable resource for the general community. This thread seems to largely be about transparency, so again I'm also curious as to what may be causing issues other than having a limited amount of info publicly available.

 

So with that being said...

 

49 minutes ago, fishy said:

First, we bring back the Board of Governors updates. I don’t know if that was a VSN initiative or what, but it could be as simple as “we talked, we discussed x, y, and z.” I respect that the community at large doesn’t need to know everything being discussed among the Board of Governors (even though that’s pretty much how it is in government bodies).

 

...I agree with this.

 

 

50 minutes ago, fishy said:

I think the concern with updates, from what I understand from BoG members, is that they discuss topics that don’t always come to fruition. Sharing those discussion topics may unnecessarily start fires among members regardless of whether they are put into place or not.

 

This is a valid point, but to the best of my knowledge there was never any conscious decision made to stop making updates and nobody has ever mentioned this about them. So I don't think this played into having updates (or not) at all.

 

 

53 minutes ago, fishy said:

Until we, as a community, can trust the Board of Governors, they’re going to continue to feel the need to protect themselves and the conversations they’re having.

 

I think this goes both ways. I've already mentioned trolling and I've already mentioned the fact that we'll have negative (and sometimes aggressive) reactions to just about everything we do. This isn't a reason to not be transparent but it is a reason to not turn over every last detail.

 

55 minutes ago, fishy said:

It’s gotten to the point where the Board of Governors exists as a secretive entity whose public and front-facing responses to things are simply, “we’ve talked about that already.”

 

You might be surprised how often that is a correct answer (whether or not it's the right one is an opinion I'm not going to tell anyone to have). Think about how long the league has existed and how many policies and amendments have been made to get us to this point--the system has continued to be optimized for 13.5 years now. It isn't perfect and it never will be--but I hope it's fair for me to say that that's part of the reason why we aren't always coming up with giant, sweeping changes to the way the league works. If the response is "we've talked about this already", I do agree that it's fair that a reason why said idea isn't a thing should at least come with that.

 

 

1 hour ago, fishy said:

Second, the BoG includes the general VHL community in the decision making of who sits on the Board. As it currently stands, the Board of Governors main service is to the league, not the users. They make decisions based on what they feel is best for the league, which is brilliant, but they completely exclude the rest of the community their decision affects.

 

With that being said, since there is no information about how members become part of the Board, I’d like to see them implement a sort of league-wide approval system for individuals joining. (I am adding a clarification that this is not directed at the two most recent inductions. I have full confidence that Cow and Al will be brilliant voices to have in the conversation.) What I’m NOT proposing is a situation where the community suggests individual members to join. I am, however, suggesting that someone (probably a Commissioner) post a poll on whether or not to add a member. It’d be a simple yes/no poll. Easy peasy.

 

I don't disagree with the spirit of this at all, but I'll also question how often we'll see someone be voted "no" enough that they don't get the job. In general, the blue team knows who's active and who makes a difference in the community, so someone who's nominated for a BoG job will presumably be someone who's respected and well-liked (and will presumably be voted in). So I feel like this would just lead to the community as a whole (regardless of how any one member feels about any one candidate) voting everyone in while some drama is also probably created over the situation.

 

 

1 hour ago, fishy said:

Third, we create a resource answering the questions I mentioned earlier - what the BoG is, what their purpose is, etc. It doesn’t need to be extensive, but something accessible on the forums is immensely better than having to reach out to individual members and ask.

 

I'd suggest you read this if you haven't already: 

We aren't as important as most people think we are, and any BoG member who tries to say they're more important or valuable than anyone else shouldn't be on the BoG.

 

 

1 hour ago, fishy said:

That’s not to say that the history of the VHL is unimportant. Long-standing members should absolutely maintain their places on the Board, as their voices are valuable to the forward movement of the league. I also acknowledge that there has been a recent push to add more newer members, like BigAL, to increase the variety of voices that can speak in that space. Optimally, there’s a balance between members who have been with the VHL for a long time and members who haven’t. Differing perspectives are deeply valuable, and I think the BoG is going to greatly benefit by bringing on newer members.

 

I find this kind of ironic because a lot of people on the BoG were "new additions" when they were added--before I was ever added, I was a bit of a hotheaded first-gen who liked to start crusades on the forum over mild inconveniences (newer members can search up "#fixthelottery" for a fine example of that). Then I was added, and it's probably been a year since that point...and I've been told I'm a boomer who doesn't care about anyone except myself and purposely makes policies to step on new members, which was exactly what I complained about before, and I like to think I'm still the same person who believes in integrity and working to improve things for everyone. Whether or not there's anything sketchy going on (and I'm not trying to say that we're perfect people), there will always be someone pointing fingers and saying things are corrupt.

 

But back to the original point--BoG membership should be diverse, I agree. It just usually takes some time before someone's considered to have proven themselves as a long-term, upstanding member of the league who doesn't cause trouble.

 

 

1 hour ago, fishy said:

I’m not here to start a fight. I’m also not here just to stir shit up.

 

Again, I really appreciate this. Legitimate points are often lost because the writer is doing these things.

 

 

Hopefully this is fair; I think it is but perhaps I'm biased.

[JigglyGumballs 1,056]

As a first-gen user, the BoG has always, and still is, an enigma to me. I'm aware of its existence and what its purpose is for the league, yet I find myself actually wondering what they do from time to time. I know that important discussions are talked about behind closed doors, but the problem with me is what they're talking about. Even with ADV's updates, I still don't get a true gist of what's going on. Maybe I'm just stupid, or have become completely oblivious to what's happening around the league. However, the point I wanna make is just a better discussion between the BoG and the members of this league.

 

I want to know what going on, what's being discussed, and I want to see if I, as a regular everyday user, can have even a tiny bit of input to be made into consideration. Now before someone bashes me for something, I wanna first explain what I want. Like fishy, I honestly want an open conversation between the BoG and members. I don't want certain decisions to be entirely up to the users, as that will definitely cause a spark which will undoubtfully end up in a ball of alcohol fueled flames, but I want people to be able to make a suggestion. Part of that requires us to actually know what's going on, and what's currently being discussed about. And what I mean by suggestion is literally a suggestion. A small input from the members who help keep this community active. Maybe a thread where people can voice their opinions but not fully influence the decision. A place where the BoG can give us transparency on what's going on and at the same time have a scenario where one goes "Oh damn, they have a good point, maybe we might take that into consideration."

 

The thing I'm trying to get here is that ultimately the BoG makes the final decision on matters. But for the love of god, please fill us in on what's going on, and if you can, please let us voice an opinion on the matter. I guarantee that someone will probably piss themselves off once or twice as voicing an opinion will always have some form of disagreement. However, letting people have a small say in the big picture might help in building trust in both the members and BoG.

[Devise 4,475]

So @fishy while you posted a lot, and I have no problem with any sort of constructive conversation about the concept of the BoG or how it's run, I guess I just don't understand the need to be so hyperbolic when you self admit refusing to put in the work to research what's actually happening. Please don't say your not being hyperbolic either. I'll list some of the blanket statements outright facts will refute.

 

For starters. "We have no idea what's being discussed in the BoG."

 

 

 

That was just from February, and while the previous edition was in December we have off/on had tons of pushes to show what was being discussed/changed behind the scenes. More than that; almost any new major announcement that requires fine tuning behind the scenes gets announced with an acknowledgement that it was done inside the BoG. With the exception of more than a few league changes, the BoG has had a hand in helping to iron out a litany of league changes. Changes that members themselves here consider good for the league. Which brings me to my second blanket statement you made; that the BoG simply doesn't work. Based on what, what metric shows you that what we are presently doing isn't working? That some members are salty they can't see every single comment from every single member all the time, and until that happens there isn't enough transparency? Literally the BoG was responsible for debating and implementing the recent livesim change, done for transparency sake. 

 

Gus lines out though some of the requirements for joining the BoG, believe it or not actual interest is one of the requirements. You'd probably be surprised the amount of invested members who we have asked who have turned down the role, it's more than you'd think. We've had members step down too so it's not like it's such a close system. This last go around when the two new members were added there was a large acknowledgement that a larger group of members in the BoG is worth while as the league itself is larger. I think that alone helps with transparency. 

 

[JigglyGumballs 1,056]

anyways imma go back to doing my homework

[Frank 5,210]

Anybody got one of those footnotes?

[Devise 4,475]

Also, and I'm just going to say this and I don't care if ANYBODY think it's insulting. You really need to listen to this comment.

 

If you are the type of person, who thinks that researching the many BoG threads to determine what has/hasn't been discussed and get a larger idea for the broader scope of where the league has or hasn't gone is too much, then you don't belong on the BoG. I resisted using the word deserve there, because it's context implies that being on the BoG is something you earn. It's not. It's not some badge of commitment where we are all like "I'm cooler than you!" Of course not.

 

It's the opposite. It's for the crazies whose level of interest is invested enough that the idea of researching who has said what on league issues to better understand the conversations that influence league changes isn't something they would blow off, or dismiss. If you don't think having people who understand the league and how it operates be involved in making changes for the league then I'd like to let you casually bring up which sim league you've run as a group for the last ten years? 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Devise

[KaleebtheMighty 1,509]

This may be a bit similar to what we kind of have in a way but what about structuring it around the premise of a town hall? Something along the lines of the BoG holds a monthly or so "live" meeting on a thread where we can publicly comment on said thread asking for changes, clarifications, transparency, proposals, and other discussions to the BoG and get responses. Heck make it like the VHL awards where it's just a live posting of topics, maybe outline a schedule for discussions beforehand on topics that need to be addressed.

I know we have a suggestions and complaints thread that we already use so this thought may be redundant. But I'm just thinking aloud and enjoying a really nice bourbon so that may be the cause of my oblivious redundancy in something we already have.

[fishy 1,757]

14 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

Is there anything other than transparency that you feel is an issue?

I suppose I wrapped up the majority of my thoughts into transparency, so that's the hill I'm dying on. I suppose I did overstate that, and I should've been more clear. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

15 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

I think this goes both ways. I've already mentioned trolling and I've already mentioned the fact that we'll have negative (and sometimes aggressive) reactions to just about everything we do. This isn't a reason to not be transparent but it is a reason to not turn over every last detail.

I completely agree with you - it's a two-way street. I tried to capture that in my post, but it was apparently not clear enough. I fully believe that both BoG members and non-members need to work together in order for actual, constructive change to happen. That's what I hoped to start with this thread, but alas, all I have done is give myself anxiety.

 

17 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

I'd suggest you read this if you haven't already: 

I did read this, and it was really helpful for me. I just wish that this kind of topic weren't something that had to be created after backlash against the Board.

 

15 minutes ago, Devise said:

That was just from February

Like I mentioned in my OP, I really enjoyed these updates. As you pointed out, we just got an update in February. And, well, quite a bit has happened since then. Call me hyperbolic if that's what helps you sleep at night, but all I'm saying is that I would greatly appreciate an update of some form - not necessarily a weekly 1000-word post, obviously that's obnoxious - more regularly. I don't know how often the BoG is doing BoG things, so I may be out of line by requesting more information about what y'all are doing, but again, there's really know way for me to know. I would like to know what the BoG is up to, and I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

18 minutes ago, Devise said:

This last go around when the two new members were added there was a large acknowledgement that a larger group of members in the BoG is worth while as the league itself is larger. I think that alone helps with transparency. 

I agree, like I said in my OP, that adding new members is a great move for the Board. I'm not sure I quite understand how that helps with transparency - could you please clarify? I am, truly, trying understand these discussions get so much activity every single time we bring it up. I truthfully don't see the direct connection between adding newer members to the Board is a direct link to transparency, so please stick with me while I try to understand.

[Advantage 2,891]

7 minutes ago, Frank said:

Anybody got one of those footnotes?

 

That was the active thread for it.

 

Some more recent ones since moving to VSN include the one Devise posted and this one:

 

 

[Devise 4,475]

9 minutes ago, fishy said:

I agree, like I said in my OP, that adding new members is a great move for the Board. I'm not sure I quite understand how that helps with transparency - could you please clarify? I am, truly, trying understand these discussions get so much activity every single time we bring it up. I truthfully don't see the direct connection between adding newer members to the Board is a direct link to transparency, so please stick with me while I try to understand.

 

Sure, I have no problem clarifying, and for the record when I said hyperbole I mean the use of specific phrases. I genuinely think this is a constructive media spot for the most part, I just feel like phrases like that coming from staff with access send a larger message than you may be intending. As an example, when you say "We don't know what's going on in the BoG" the uninformed, who haven't seen the update your talking about use that as a narrative to say "the BoG is hiding what they are doing and never has released an update about their accounts." 

 

To the transparency point, the league is as transparent as the spread of information about what's going on. Only in the really, really rare instances of secret expansion or changes that would give unfair advantages do things get kept so tight that nobody knows about them in advance. A larger pool of members in the BoG doesn't just mean more members involved in the conversation of changes, it spreads out that information to more member groups. This can be relevant if say, a league change that we know is coming is being discussed and someone shares it amongst some of their league friends. Having someone you know be apart of the conversation of league changes also would allow those said friends a more comfortable trusted member to talk to about the process. More than that, more members who are attached to more differing groups in the BoG means they can bring those members concerns into the BoG as well. Not every BoG member will matry a cause, but every now and then someone finds someone that speaks to them from Suggestions and Complaints and tries to get it work shopped into actual change. This would only increase with more members in the BoG. 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Devise

[Advantage 2,891]

10 minutes ago, fishy said:

 

 

Like I mentioned in my OP, I really enjoyed these updates. As you pointed out, we just got an update in February. And, well, quite a bit has happened since then. Call me hyperbolic if that's what helps you sleep at night, but all I'm saying is that I would greatly appreciate an update of some form - not necessarily a weekly 1000-word post, obviously that's obnoxious - more regularly. I don't know how often the BoG is doing BoG things, so I may be out of line by requesting more information about what y'all are doing, but again, there's really know way for me to know. I would like to know what the BoG is up to, and I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

 

There is a lot that the BOG aren't privy to in terms of what has come out since then.  Half of it I was surprised about.

 

If I did a weekly post (500 words lets say) I would have to put in a lot of fill in for a lot of weeks to get enough interesting things to actually talk about.

 

That being said if not for the Top 75 Project and my recent hospital trip, these would be done every other week which is and was my intention (I've already got most of this week's written up).  It was going to be posted tonight but after this we will see lol...may be more to put in.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Advantage

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

I feel like there's some sort of mystique about the BoG or people thinking we're more important than we are.

 

It's literally a group of individuals who are able to have focused discussions about possible changes to the league. Key word is "focused" - there's a reason that not all discussion or decisions is opened up to the league at large. It becomes much harder to stay on topic and keep a focused conversation about a single topic.

 

 

[Advantage 2,891]

Just now, Fire Vigneault said:

I feel like there's some sort of mystique about the BoG or people thinking we're more important than we are.

 

It's literally a group of individuals who are able to have focused discussions about possible changes to the league. Key word is "focused" - there's a reason that not all discussion or decisions is opened up to the league at large. It becomes much harder to stay on topic and keep a focused conversation about a single topic.

 

 

Yeah I feel like some dont read the threads that have been made that are about league ideas...they are full of people flaming each other and getting angry.

 

That is no way to discuss decisions.

[bigAL 2,176]

Hooo boy can’t wait to come back and write a proper response to this tomorrow morning. I love a discussion about good governance. Nuke the bog is a hilarious meme, but I appreciate that your argument is a bit more.... nuanced. 

[Beketov 9,025]

2 minutes ago, fishy said:

And, well, quite a bit has happened since then.

Not as much as you might think that would require an update. As we have mentioned before there’s a large discussion going on in regards to potential roster room issues but we aren’t ready to discuss our actual plan for that yet. Outside of that there was a small discussion about tiebreakers but that’s about it. End of the season is when we get into HoF and award discussion and voting so that takes up a lot of time and effort.

 

As @GustavMattias alluded to there isn’t as much going on in the BOG as people like to think. Not having weekly updates doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of transparency, it could easily just mean a lack of things worth updating.

 

Ultimately the issue with transparency (and I don’t mean I want none, just that it can’t be an open window) is three-fold.
 

First, that if everyone in the league is involved in every decision nothing will ever get done because there are too many opinions. So if we give every bit of information out on paper it’s great, everyone gets to be involved, but in practice it’s a nightmare of too many cooks in the kitchen. For example, just in the “limited” group of the BOG the Miami expansion had a 9 page discussion, at least 4 pages of which were just arguing over the logo because everyone has different opinions on what is too detailed or too “e-sports” or whatever. 9 pages for a single team; and that’s not about the expansion draft or rules or anything else, those were basically already set in stone. That was just the location, name, and logo amongst like a dozen people. Take that discussion and add 200 more opinions, it all becomes noise. Now take that noise and apply it to a more major discussion and you see the problem of too many voices being involved.

 

Second, the league can maintain absolutely no surprises. For some this may be a bonus but let’s be honest, people on the whole like hyped up announcements a big surprises and shakeups. You get none of that if everything that’s open for discussion is laid out on the table. Trust me, I used to get much more hyped for big changes when I didn’t know it was coming than I do being the one to announce it.

 

Third, and Gus kinda touched on this, there is a certain degree baseline level of anger, be it trolling or otherwise, aimed at the BOG from the moment someone is added. Doesn’t matter that their behaviour and opinions don’t change, as soon as they get in they get a target in their back because some members like to think of the BOG as some kind of secret club that only the elite get into. How is this a problem with transparency? Quite simply that too much transparency means risk of this baseline anger being directed at a specific member for holding a specific opinion. Get that enough and your will to have an opinion, or at least voice it, diminishes.

 

I’m not trying to be argumentative here and I know Gus and @Devise aren’t either but there is definitely a certain level of “transparency” being a moving target in the league. People demand it, we make changes, and then still get screamed at that it isn’t enough. I get if people are frustrated but it’s good to remember that the frustration goes both ways. On the whole the BOG are just active members taking time out of their day to try and better the league (with no pay for it I might add) so it tends to come off harsh when the finger gets pointed at them for not doing enough.

[Enorama 2,038]

2 hours ago, fishy said:

I’m not here to start a fight. I’m also not here just to stir shit up.

 

Can we fight anyways

[Enorama 2,038]

2 hours ago, fishy said:

I am, however, suggesting that someone (probably a Commissioner) post a poll on whether or not to add a member. It’d be a simple yes/no poll. Easy peasy.

 

On a more serious note, I know you're kinda getting doggy piled a bit already, but I get the feeling that this poll would likely devolve into non-BOG members voting YES because they believe they're deserving of it and would be next in line (or close to it).

[Gustav 6,414]

4 minutes ago, Enorama said:

On a more serious note, I know you're kinda getting doggy piled a bit already, but I get the feeling that this poll would likely devolve into non-BOG members voting YES because they believe they're deserving of it and would be next in line (or close to it).

 

Or voting no because they're bitter about not being the candidate. I think as a whole the candidates would be well-liked enough by the league in general that we'd rarely (if ever) see someone get voted out though.