The Great VHL Job Pay Review

[Gustav 6,469]

Checks article claims

I'm finally out of stuff to claim, so to the great delight of anyone who actually takes the time to read my stuff (thank you all!), it's now time for me to go off on another tangent for a solid few weeks of media spot pay (though I'd also like to take this opportunity to tease the potential existence of another mock draft. Remember my overuse of parenthetical remarks, by the way? Yep, some things never change).

 

But enough about me.

 

Actually, no, just kidding--let's talk about me again. Anyone who pays attention to the forum or to Discord who was alive and well about a month ago will remember me repeatedly annoying the VHL community to take a survey about job pay (more specifically, I annoyed those with league jobs to take a survey about their own jobs). Job pay is a highly controversial topic around the league--jobs such as recruitment crew and VSN are often maligned for receiving what some believe is too much, while other jobs, including GMs and commissioners, are often felt to be underpaid and deserving of more. Before we start, I'd like to make something clear: this article is NOT meant to advocate for any type of change to the pay of any job or group of jobs, nor is it meant to advocate for any type of overhaul of the job pay system as a whole. I've got my own opinions about job pay, but those in charge know very well by now that when there's something I'd like to advocate for, I prefer to do it by blowing up the Suggestions and Complaints section rather than letting it loose in a media spot. In this article, I've included opinions with which I agree and opinions with which I do not. The goal here is to present a topic which has generated a great deal of discussion in a manner as neutral as is possible, and I hope you'll all agree that I've achieved that goal.

 

The American Dollar, also known as the "teep," the "AGM job pay," or the "bonus @Advantage accidentally gave me in S67."

 

 

Some general information about the survey used:

 

-Those taking the survey were asked to answer questions about their job and give opinions about both their job and others.

-Questions asked included "What do you do every week for your job pay?", "Do you think your pay is fair?", and "What are your opinions on the job pay system as a whole?", to name a few.

-Those who responded were given the choice to make their responses anonymous, or to leave their comments out of the article, and this choice was respected wherever it was requested to be exercised.

-Those with multiple jobs were asked to fill out the survey once for each job which they hold.

 

-In total, 36 different responses were gathered, from 23 different people (and a big thank you goes to each and every one).

-77.8% of all responders feel that they are being paid fairly, while 22.2% feel that they are not.

-Of those who felt they were not being paid fairly, 6 felt that they were underpaid, while 2 felt that they were overpaid.

 

 

Now, let's take a look at each position individually, complete with responses and opinions.

 

 

JOBS WITHOUT RESPONSES:

Mod/Liaison: 2 TPE

News Manager: 2 TPE

Trivia Handler: 2 TPE

Head of PT Staff: 2 TPE

Lottery Manager: 3 TPE

Portal Development: 12 TPE

 

And now, let's get into those jobs with responses.

 

DEVELOPER

Job Pay: 2 TPE (flexible based on amount of work done)

Responses: 2

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Update Android App and pray to god Josh decides to actually implement the update so that the app isn't a WHOLE FUCKING SEASON BEHIND. *Calm down dil*""

-DilIsPickle

Comments on Pay:

None

 

SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER

Job Pay: 2 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Participate in conversations on official VHL Twitter account to try and get our name recognized"

-Enorama

Comments on Pay:

None

 

FANTASY ZONE

Job Pay: 2 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Only during the season do I create a survey and [award uncapped TPE based on correct responses]."

-Acydburn

Comments on Pay:

None

 

PLAYER STORE MANAGER

Job Pay: 2 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Approve income and purchases, hand in hand with dev job."

-Josh

Comments on Pay:

None

 

AGM

Job Pay: 0 or 1 TPE, depending on whether pay is split with GM

Responses: 5

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"I'm a LR presence and I assist Eno with lines or stuff when needed."

-McWolf

"Help Beaviss run the Wolves; notably helping the team with TPE tasks, doing the lines, and moral support to keep the team engaged."

-Philliefan

Comments on Pay:

"I mean, of course I'd like to earn more TPE, but I can't really say it's unfair."

-Philliefan

"I don't think AGMs should be paid; a lot of the job is just being nice."

-Berocka

 

GM

Job Pay: 2 or 1 TPE, depending on whether pay is split with AGM

Responses: 11

% Fair: 55%

Avg. Pay Desired (by those who feel pay is unfair): 3.1

Duties:

"I maintain my discord by giving TPE opportunities. I’m also posting boxscores, training my assistant and helping my team build their players. There’s a lot involved considering I’m sending DMs daily to respond to questions about player builds and how to utilize their abilities."

-Anonymous

"Run a team, setup lines, recruit players, press conference and in general keeping people engaged and entertained."

-Rayzor_7

"I GM"

-Nykonax

Comments on Pay:

"It's fine."

-Esso2264

"I think GMs should get paid an extra TPE or so, it's more work than 2 TPE."

-ShawnGlade

"I think because the GM position is so desired, the pay does not need to be high. Although it does take a lot of time and effort, being a successful GM is the reward. There is no need to pay more to GMs. I think GM pay can be 1 TPE/week."

-DMaximus

 

UPDATER

Job Pay: 3 TPE (mostly; Velevra gets 4)

Responses: 7

% Fair: 86%

Pay Desired (by dissenting individual): 4

Duties:

"I check and update players submission to make sure they are in-line with the rules, sometimes update the requests to be more correct and at time contact players to what they need to do to get the TPE they deserve."

-rjfryman

Comments on Pay:

"The updater position takes a lot of time, knowledge, and focus, which is why I think they should get 4 TPE. The main problem with projecting the appropriate amount of TPE to the updater job is that the amount of work for a single updater is variable each week. Since there was a call for new updaters and many people applied, 3 TPE seems like it's working for updaters."

-DMaximus

"Updating is a never ending job. The more new members we get, the more updates there are to push. We had a rough patch last season but we just got some new blood in and we are doing good at the moment. Not complaining."

-McWolf

"I think Updaters should be paid a bit more because I get almost the same thing as a GM and we kinda can't live without updaters."

-Esso2264

 

VHLM COMMISSIONER

Job Pay: 3 TPE (plus one full free week and one PT free week per season)

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Deal with petty, insignificant arguments, get things brought to my attention that are actually the responsibility of either a blue or a portal guy, sign off on whatever scheme of the week banana is up to, once per season all the math on the achievement tracker."

-diamond_ace

Comments on Pay:

"I'm good on my end, don't really care about other people's job pay."

-diamond_ace

 

VHL COMMISSIONER

Job Pay: 3 TPE (plus one full free week and one PT free week per season)

Responses: 1

% Fair: 0%

Duties:

"Keep all you fuckers in check and keep the lights on. General running of everything."

-Beketov

Comments on Pay:

"Realistically commish pay has always been low; it's a love of the job kind of job. However it didn't go up at all with the inflation from 9-12 and with more members and more teams there is more to deal with than before. Realistically we need more. In general I would say most jobs get paid more or less fair, though I'm sure the people doing the jobs will always ask for me."

-Beketov

 

SIMMER

Job Pay: 7 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Input lines and rating updates and sim daily."

-Beketov

Comments on Pay:

"As it relates to simming: I think the pay itself is relatively fair for the work however the expectations of simmers are far higher than any other job in the league in regards to people complaining when sims are late, or when lines are wrong, or a myriad of other issues. Expectations need to be more realistic that we're controlling 12 teams and hundreds of players on a daily basis, shit happens."

-Beketov

 

VSN WRITER

Job Pay: 8 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"Write articles."

-Matt_O

Comments on Pay:

None

 

VSN HEAD/EDITOR

Job Pay: 10 TPE (2 TPE only if VSN does not produce an article)

Responses: 1

% Fair: 0%

Pay Desired: 8 TPE

Duties:

"Run VSN."

-ShawnGlade

Comments on Pay:

"[It would likely be more fair if I were paid] 8, I mean I'll take the 10 but it's not as much work as 10 TPE should be."

-ShawnGlade

 

RECRUITMENT CREW

Job Pay: 12 TPE

Responses: 1

% Fair: 100%

Duties:

"I update and maintain a list of all draft season players where they rank in tpe against their peers. I greet and help answer questions to new people on the forums. I write a weekly vhlm newsletter that contains news and information that would be helpful to new people as well as hopefully any player who reads it. I also am working on programming projects to make the league a better place and easier for other people to get data and other tools."

-rjfryman

Comments on Pay:

"I think it depends on the person in general. I know myself and I push myself to be worth my entire job pay. If someone were to call me out I would not get defensive but rather ask the question to them and the league what can I do to be worth the points that I take."

-rjfryman

 

 

The fine people who took part in the survey were also asked what they thought about the system as a whole. I've taken samples of as many varying opinions as I could find (not that there were many, really), and stuck them below:

 

"Recruitment pay baffles me."

-Enorama

 

"I know this is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but the recruitment team gets way too much TPE, I think that alone is the cause of this view that Job Pay is skewed. To me the solution is not to raise all other job's TPE, but to lower the recruitment team's TPE pay. Based on other job pay and the amount of time required for those jobs, there is no way recruitment should receive 12 TPE each week. At most they should receive 6 TPE. And that's even way too much. Really they should receive 3 TPE. There is no way recruitment jobs spend that much more time on their task than other jobs spend on their task."

-Anonymous

 

"Recruitment less, commissioners more."

-Matt_O

 

"I think the retainment jobs might need a bit of TPE re-evaluation. I know I did far too much in the role sometimes (Used to do the Live Rankings, a weekly ranking write-up of the draft prospects, VHLM Player Press Conference, the VHLM Newsletter, updating the New Member Guides and a lot of time in the discord all at the same time) but it's a little strange to see people get offered the full 12 TPE for a fraction of what I used to do (I'm fine with RJFryman's for example, but TheFlash's pay was excessive). I'm fine with the pay the other jobs have, it's just sometimes members with jobs (namely VSN and Brand Managers when they were a thing) will claim TPE when it's not necessarily clear that they've actually done the required work, so I think more could be done in that regard."

-Tagger

 

"I believe that there are unfair pay for Recruitment team as they are paid too much and Commissioners are paid too little but everything else seems fine."

-Frostbeard

 

"The only reason I think it should go up is because, recruitment auto capping is dumb and updaters get 3 and do an equivalent amount of work. 2 TPE jobs include shit like fantasy zones.. I'd be happy if those went down instead as well."

-Josh

 

"I dont like the free 12 claims of those in charge, makes me feel less interested in the leagues as its too easy to max for them."

-OrbitingDeath

 

"I think the VSN job pay makes no sense at all. It’s nice that some of them take it seriously (like Matt_O) and that they try to get an article out every week. Reality is though, I see certain VSN members that barely write an article a week and when they do, it’s piss poor and lazy. Also, it’s a glorified media spot. Why should they get 2 more tpe for literally the same thing? ECN is better and Frostbeard is getting paid 6 TPE a week (in media spot claims)."

-Anonymous

 

"I feel like many things have too much pay, anything 6+ is insane to me."

-HulkHogan

 

"I believe it is mostly fair, however would like to see more variation. If someone does nothing one week make it 0 for some jobs. GMs should get more in preseason."

-Berocka

 

"Even if AGM TPE stays at 1, I think GMs should be able to claim 2 TPE regardless of having an AGM because A. it encourages them to take AGMs under their wing and teach them stuff. and B. they shouldn't have to sacrifice pay to do that. I don't really know how much other jobs get paid, so come back to me about the comparison after I've read your article ;). I feel like it'd be nice for the job pay system to be more transparent with jobs, both available and taken, and their pay rates. Also, updating can get suuuuuper backed up sometimes, like over a day, and I know I (and many others) have been trying to become updaters for a while - because we all notice this - and are simply told to apply for the job or quit complaining. Then, once we all applied for the job, like one or two of us got it and updates got slightly less backed up. (It doesn't help that a certain updater just lost his job...) So, yeah I'd like to be an updater and earn dat TPE, but at least give another one or two guys the job, even if one is like half-time pay of 3 TPE every two weeks or whatever, and he just helps out on Mondays and Tuesdays or something, idk."

-Philliefan

 

"I feel like some people put a lot of time into their job and some people put just enough time. There is not a right or wrong way to do it if the job gets done. I do a lot and sometimes it actually feels like a job. I don't know how many real life hours I put into all my jobs as well as time thinking about improving the site or other things but I try and do my best and work hard to do what ever is needed. I just hope I don't burn out at some point since I know some people criticize the pay of my jobs but I hope that I earn my keep."

-rjfryman

 

"Hi Gustav"

-Motzaburger

 

 

So, after all of this, which I feel I have done as neutrally as is possible, I feel that it would be helpful for me to talk about how I feel, personally, about the job pay system, so as to make clear any bias which I may have inadvertently included in this article--which, again, is meant to ONLY represent the opinions of the league as a whole, and none of my own. I've made it hidden, so if you'd like to read it, go ahead, but if you don't care, there's no obligation to. You're done, that's I've got.

Spoiler

 

Let's start off with the obvious: recruitment crew, the one job that everyone feels deserves nothing near their current pay rate. Personally, I feel that while 12 TPE seems a bit much, there's no way for me to be super critical of this without knowing everything the recruitment team does--which I do not. Right off the bat, I will say that I believe that @rjfryman deserves 12 per week, because not only does he do quite a bit for recruitment crew in public, he's also one of the league's best updaters (and he does that for free). It's also my opinion that @STZ deserves 12 per week--with the new graphics program, some weeks he ends up doing more work than the rest of us to cap. I'm not opposed to @Beaviss earning 12, either--I don't know everything he does, but based on recent results alone (I came here through a Reddit post that was likely Beav's work, and so have many, many others), I'm inclined to believe that what he does is either equal to 12 per week or pretty close to it. I've heard that there's a lot going on behind the scenes, too, but here's where the ambiguity jumps in. Especially in the past couple seasons leading up to this one (in which I will say that the situation has improved a good deal), it wasn't always clear what recruitment crew was doing. If they were (and are) earning 12 TPE per week, there had better be a lot going on that isn't publicly viewable.

 

Now, on to the other job that everyone likes to complain about, VSN. I have said multiple times that VSN pay is fair if you do your job, and I still believe this. It's an absolute joke that members of VSN are often guilty of claiming job pay when they haven't done an article--not just that week, but even in recent memory (I'm not talking about any one individual--this has happened many times with many different writers). I do believe, though, that VSN is in serious need of overhaul--see my recent suggestion post for ideas such as multi-week job pay claims for long articles (thus encouraging high-quality, in-depth content), an elimination of the (admittedly loosely-enforced) "you have to do an article every week to claim job pay" rule, so this may happen, and a required documentation of which article is being used as a basis for claiming job pay, every week, to prevent claims from those who do no work but attempt to claim pay anyway.

 

I believe that commissioners, especially VHL commissioners, should receive more than 3 TPE per week. In the case of the VHLM, I'd say 4 per week works, and 3 isn't incredibly far off. For the VHL commissioners, what the hell are we smoking in a world where job pay is the same as doing a 10-minute VHL.com podcast each week? This league couldn't even run without the commissioners, and if ever there were a job which deserved 12 TPE per week (along with portal development), being the league commissioner is it. At the very least, pay should go up, and go up significantly, to (at least) 6 per week.

 

For updaters--long story short, it depends on how much you do, and whether or not you do a good job. An updater who spends 10 minutes on Monday morning auto-approving everything and then checks out for the week (not saying there are any, just an example) should not be paid 3 TPE. But, an updater who spends a significant amount of time on their job throughout the course of the week, checking updates and making sure they're being done in a legitimate fashion, deserves more than this, maybe 4.

 

GM pay has been controversial for a while, and during my early days as GM, I strongly believed that GMs deserve more than 2 TPE per week. Right now, though, while I still believe that I, personally, do much more GM work per week than 2 TPE suggests, and so does any other GM who does a decent job, I also personally don't need more, and I'm not complaining that I don't get it. I certainly wouldn't complain if GM pay were to be raised--I think 3 or 4 per week is a much more accurate number, and scouting blows the cap out of the water some weeks during the offseason--but at the same time, I don't feel that I'm being served an injustice by claiming 2 TPE per week.

 

There is, however, a modification to GM pay which I've advocated for in the past, and which I still believe should be implemented. This has not gone over well in the past and I don't expect it to ever go into effect, so I really don't care about it too strongly these days. I'm in agreement with @Philliefan in that I believe that we should abandon the system of splitting GM pay each week, and give the GM 2 TPE per week, no matter what. Whether the AGM then receives a fixed amount of 1 TPE per week in addition to this, or no TPE at all, I couldn't care less. 1 TPE is menial and doesn't make a difference either way.

 

Aside from this, I'd say I don't have much worth adding about the job pay system, or any specific jobs. Nothing else has presented itself as a huge, significant issue to me, and I haven't seen much of the league complaining about one thing or another.

 

 

3,683 words; see you in 4 weeks (or less if I've got enough free time to write up a mock--believe me, I want to). Tagging all who responded to the survey below:

Spoiler

@Enorama @McWolf @Esso2264 @DMaximus @Rayzor_7 @fonziGG @rjfryman @Matt_O @Acydburn @Tagger @Berocka @HulkHogan @FrostBeard @Nykonax @Josh @DilIsPickle @diamond_ace @Philliefan @Motzaburger @OrbitingDeath @Beketov @ShawnGlade 

 

[McWolf 3,116]

4 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

"I GM"

-Nykonax

 

[Esso2264 774]

12 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

"I don't think AGMs should be paid; a lot of the job is just being nice."

-Berocka

 

[Gustav 6,469]

12 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

that's I've got.

Edit: that's all I've got. inb4 @diamond_ace corrects me on this.

[STZ 5,389]

For the record it would be a lot easier for me to get the cap without my job. I do this to help hype the draft classes earlier in their career. But yeah if there’s a claw-back for job pay I’ll just go back to cruising with max earning without a job, no prob

[Motzaburger 1,590]

5 hours ago, GustavMattias said:

 

"Hi Gustav"

-Motzaburger

 

[Gustav 6,469]

Claiming for week 2 of 4.

[Gustav 6,469]

Claim for week 3 of 4.

[Gustav 6,469]

Claim for week 4 of 4 (week ending 11/24). That's it for this one.