Time for a change in simming

[emidas 82]

I'm just here so I won't get fined.

[stevo 793]

Say it with your chest in the back of the Fuddrucker's parking lot

[dlamb 1,326]

[hedgehog337 3,483]

yes

[Peace 1,534]

So I just want to know... are we really accusing Beketov in rigging the sims on a sim engine he can't truthfully rig for an individual player in the first place? As far as I understand... any setting Beketov would use to make sure his player was successful would also apply to everyone else because there is only global settings in the version of the engine we use. 

 

Am I understanding this correctly in that Gorlab is saying that Bek is sitting there on his PC re-simming each game, outputting the results into a folder and then checking the folder for favorable results before uploading them to the server? Do you who think there is fuckery afoot really think Beketov is going to sit there and wait until he gets the results he wants for just Lathinen or Moscow?

 

I don't think you understand how much work that would really be, I don't even understand how much work that would really be, and how much time it would take just to guarantee his player got a criteria in the x or y category of his choosing. No, I don't think Beketov is cheating or rigging the sims. 


With that out of the way... I 100% support transparent sims. Go live on YouTube/Twitch, hit the sim button, export them to a folder and then upload them to the server. It seems pretty simple and only adds a few extra steps (as covered by Sonnet earlier), reinforces the integrity people are talking about and solves the 'you're rigging' argument before it becomes another argument. 

Just my $0.02 though.  

Edited February 22, 2021 by Peace

[fromtheinside 1,290]

I don't really know what to make about the allegations in this thread... but one thing I have a strong opinion about is the live sims suggestion. The viewpoint of "these guys are all super busy and have lives so they don't have time to live sim every day" seems absurd to me. These guys are users who have put in some work to get the roles they have whether its BoG, simmer, etc... You took on a high-end job in the community and to me that comes with extra responsibility. Like pointed out many times before, you literally just click "live stream" on Discord and record yourself doing sims. It takes minimal additional effort to do. I get they have lives, but if the screencap gorlab posted of Bek saying "im not making my life hell" is within the context of having to livestream sims then I kind of find that to be disappointing.

[Red 499]

2 minutes ago, fromtheinside said:

I don't really know what to make about the allegations in this thread... but one thing I have a strong opinion about is the live sims suggestion. The viewpoint of "these guys are all super busy and have lives so they don't have time to live sim every day" seems absurd to me. These guys are users who have put in some work to get the roles they have whether its BoG, simmer, etc... You took on a high-end job in the community and to me that comes with extra responsibility. Like pointed out many times before, you literally just click "live stream" on Discord and record yourself doing sims. It takes minimal additional effort to do. I get they have lives, but if the screencap gorlab posted of Bek saying "im not making my life hell" is within the context of having to livestream sims then I kind of find that to be disappointing.

well said my guy

[Kelsier 28]

The accusations against Mo were so fleshed out and accurate, and ended well. Let's see what happens here.

[OrbitingDeath 3,198]

TL:DR Devise his players are bad regardless of if he sims? Or did i miss the point completely here?

[Juice 641]

 

Ah, another beautiful morning and another spicy thread.

[OrbitingDeath 3,198]

5 hours ago, BOOM said:

I'm glad @OrbitingDeath isn't a simmer then. FFS.

 

I only pay the simmers, I don't want to sim myself

[Victor 10,950]

I'm just sad I'm gonna have to ask someone else to do Lahtinen's Moscow HOF graphic.

[Beketov 9,033]

Alright I just woke up and don’t have time to read all this. I skimmed it but I assume the TLDR is: Bek players good so Gorlab mad?

 

I did see that he included S62 and S64 which is funny because I wasn’t simming the VHL yet in these seasons so that’s fun. I only simmed 66 and 68 in Thompson’s career, the rest of that section can be thrown out.

 

I also saw someone, @RedSus I think, mention Lahtinen playing top line all three seasons in the same team. This is true but the team around me changed quite a bit, league scoring in general went down, and I believe (although @Victor can confirm) that I wasn’t as high in the PP lines in 75 so I wasn’t getting as many power play goals. Could be wrong there but there’s definitely a lot of data being thrown out outside of that as well. For example three of those seasons I switched teams, 2 via FA where I could specifically pick my team. S66 I signed with a super strong Helsinki team to win a cup, S68 I specifically signed from a team that had 2 two-way guys together (a build that has always gone bad for me) to a team that was literally set up to feed me goals. S74 I was traded to Moscow so completely different team makeup. Those are being played off as a coincidence as I guess? S68 especially is interesting because 66 and 67 I played with Borwinn both times but he re-rolled his build into basically the same as mine in 67 with the result that we both did worse because two-way guys don’t like working together. Similar thing happened when @DollarAndADream  and I signed together in S65. I get that this is a lot of coincidence to believe, that bad things happened on seasons I wasn’t simming and good things on seasons I was but that’s basically what happened.

 

Long and short of it: my method for simming is to take my work computer, sign into teamviewer to get to my home computer to sim. Before anyone asks I work on a Mac so can’t just out STHS in my work machine even if I wanted to. I don’t know if you’ve ever used teamviewer but it’s laggy and in a small window and doesn’t allow you to do quite everything as you normally would. This is why my live sims in the playoffs can’t have any commentary because I don’t have control of the mic. Anyway, the point is, it’s a few extra clicks on paper but with that set up it’s more of a pain than it seems. I do it in the playoffs but every single day is definitely a bit trickier. With that said, the next conflict of interest season for me will be S80 (aim retiring trade deadline next season so do the math) so maybe by then I can work out a better system to make it live every day if people want that. I stand that it shouldn’t be needed but if it’s wanted I can try to work something out over the next couple of seasons. I say this because some of you actually approached things in a reasonable manner instead of shouting about what a filthy cheater I am.

 

Anyway, time to make breakfast.

[bigAL 2,176]

Lots going on in here:

 

- the illusion of rigging is just as bad as rigging. If any ol Charlie can form an argument this strong enough every generation or so, then there is a problem. The problem isn’t Bek cheating - again, he said he didn’t and I believe him - but the problem is that it could look like it. Something has to be done to prove there’s no rigging if we want people to trust the league. We have to look at the arguments and rainbow flavoured unicorns here, even if they don’t represent a complete truth: a person in a considerable amount of power in the league has complete and sole power over the output of the sim engine. The only way to remove this look (in addition to the statements of support  from other simmers and blues) is to either change simmers or install guardrails to make simming more transparent. 
 

- the arguments here on both sides are persuasive but the thing I keeps coming back to is: “physically, how would he do it?” Short of editing the league file to give yourself 99s across the board, it’s pretty friggin hard to sim over and over until you get one desired result out of so many possible outcomes. It ain’t nobody got time to livestream, there’s no way nobody got time to rig. 

 

- fun fact, simmers always win (isn’t that right @Acydburn ?!) I’ve always chalked it up to them being very experienced players who have an intimate relationship with Simon on a level no one else has. Knowledge is power yo. 
 

- moral of the story: this can’t be waved away. Think of all the impressionable first gens we have around here now. They can’t get cynical about the league if we want to retain them. Make the sim process more accountable, for the league’s sake, for Bek’s sake, and for our sake. If Bek can’t do that for whatever reason, he needs to say so and we have to find a new simmer (and/or increase the job pay to reflect the extra work). 

Edited February 22, 2021 by bigAL
autocorrect errors, we don’t need to look at the “rainbow flavoured unicorns” of the situation

[Jubis 1,349]

[KaleebtheMighty 1,509]

Boy what a thread to wake up to and read! Anybody want breakfast while we are here?

 

[LittleRiDog 17]

Interesting Stuff

[Jericho 917]

Having taken the night to think about it I've come to two conclusions.

 

1. We super need to separate the conversation of live simming from talking about Beketov's integrity. As said before there is merit to that conversation in a vacuum, although he did raise some pretty legit reasons why that gets complicated but that discussion is totally fine.

 

2. Absolutely no case was built to support the rigging argument. Gorlab cherrypicked one stat that looked favourable to his conclusion and people read that as "That stat is true, so his conclusion is correct.  Several members, including Beketov himself brought evidence forward about variables that would have affected that. Gorlab was either too malicious or too stupid to do his due diligence and this argument shouldn't be given the time of day. Using a single data point, regardless of how true the point is doesn't mean you can make conclusions based on that. For example "I had the best W/L record in the VHLM, therefore I should be top goalie" is in a similar vein. That statement is true, 100% accurate. The issue is it ignores the context that says I only played 3 games. Gorlab did the same thing here, ignoring countless factors to sling shade on someone for no reason, either out of malice or stupidity.

 

The rest of this discussion should only be about the validity of live simming, and Gorlab's take should be treated like the trashfire conspiracy theory of a lunatic it deserves to be.

[Kachur 112]

I think all in all what this boils down too is its time to live sim. 

I have been in favor of this for years, for the whole old man has life argument, hire people who WANT to live sim. there are members who would gladly do a live stream and make it interesting. the league has been around enough and I think this is the next logical step forward.

Live sims would put all of this to bed PERIOD. 

[Beketov 9,033]

Just a general rundown in case anyone is curious about circumstances outside the raw numbers:

 

61-64: As mentioned I wasn’t simming yet so really just a good baseline of Thompson’s talent.

 

65: Devise Simmed so lab ignored this one (a mistake in itself because things happened in odd numbered seasons as well to drop my numbers as much as they happened in even numbered to increase them). In 65 Ironside and I both signed in Seattle intending to make it a super team. This backfired as I learned that if I’m on a line with another 2-way guy we would both suck. Ironside actually played pretty on point but Thompson suffered.

 

66: I jump ship to an insane Helsinki team. Anyone that looks at the team that season can recognize why my numbers were good. Borwinn and I played lights out together and it went great.

 

67: Borwinn re-rolled his attributes and basically copied my build. Went okay for him in the long run but as mentioned above Thompson didn’t like other 2-way players with him. Borwinn and Thompson both suffered big time.

 

68: Intentionally signed with a team so that I could hit 400 goals and had everyone on the team on board with that goal. @Advantage and @OrbitingDeath  for sure can confirm. We were a team built entirely for feeding Thompson goals.

 

69: No player in the VHL so as mentioned, not really relevant.

 

70-71: Probably my worst seasons with any player I’ve ever had. Went up slightly with Devise simming but I was still miserably awful. These are more uncharacteristic than awful than proof I shouldn’t have been doing better but there you go, horrible years.

 

72: The peak of that current build of Calgary. Scoring on the whole was down that season and I finished 10th, 16 points out of first place. I did tie for the Brooks which is shocking after my first two seasons but I also had Jubis feeding me like mad all year (he finished third in points and had 55 assists). Playoffs went very similarly (while live) until we were shut down in the finals. It was a strong team to be honest.

 

73: Scoring in the league went way up, mine didn’t. Jubis stayed hot so I think we were spreading things around a lot. On the whole a 9 point difference between 72 and 73 isn’t some insane red flag. My goals did drop a lot, I’m confused by that. @Jubis was GMing his first full season so we’re lines a little wonky maybe? Unsure.

 

74: Traded to Moscow and let’s be honest, was the best player on the roster by a pretty wide margin. Not the first time that a good player on an iffy team has been great. The fact that Moscow played way above its skill level is more surprising.

 

75: Big drop off I can admit. Partially consistent with the league scoring going down on the whole but not fully I can admit. Like I said earlier, I think I wasn’t on the PP lines and on the whole we didn’t mesh amazingly. I actually found in the playoffs (again, live) I did a bit more consistently good than the RS.

 

76: A bunch of trades led to a super strong lineup, see S66.

 

—————————

 

So ultimately that’s a lot but just pointing out that there’s a lot of information being left out of the sheer numbers. However @bigAL makes a good point. Should this be about me at all? Probably not. Gorlab made it that way for reasons I’m not really sure of. Perhaps the conversation should be more of “can we remove the question” rather than “is he cheating” as it was presented.

 

As I said, it’s difficult but I’ve got 6 seasons without a conflict of interest to try and figure it out so I’ll see what I can do.

[Beketov 9,033]

3 minutes ago, ATST said:

for the whole old man has life argument, hire people who WANT to live sim. there are members who would gladly do a live stream

Of note simming isn’t something we can just hand anyone. Doing it involves having access to every league file from every season in the server AND all the backups. 4 keystrokes could delete the entire league.

 

So yes, we can look at the process but there are reasons I don’t care for the “just hire someone willing” argument because there is a lot of trust involved.

[Kachur 112]

Just now, Beketov said:

Of note simming isn’t something we can just hand anyone. Doing it involves having access to every league file from every season in the server AND all the backups. 4 keystrokes could delete the entire league.

 

So yes, we can look at the process but there are reasons I don’t care for the “just hire someone willing” argument because there is a lot of trust involved.

there are people I know you would trust with it. 

im not saying it would be easy but I think its the right move. 

[Eynhallow 412]

The Sim Police is comin'

 

 

Just to add my 2 cents (or less).  Although I find all the arguments stated here somewhat believable and very well stated, I have to admit that I greet them all with skepticism.  I categorically do not subscribe to conspiracy theories or in wide-spread cheating in a fucking sim league.  The people that donate so much of their time and effort to make leagues like this happen should only deserve RESPECT.   I would also like to point out that those people are very experienced in how to build a successful player and how to place them for optimal statistical success.  They also generate enough TPE to build those players.  If you place a highly skilled Center in his natural position (i.e. Center) on a line surrounded by other highly skilled players.......AND you play him on the third line and the PP and the PK.  He is gonna have lots of exposure to being able to rack up stats in a hurry.

 

"68: Intentionally signed with a team so that I could hit 400 goals and had everyone on the team on board with that goal. @Advantage and @OrbitingDeath for sure can confirm. We were a team built entirely for feeding Thompson goals."

 

I rest my case !!!!

 

With respect to demanding more out of the volunteers, let's get real.  They are here for the same reasons as we all should be....to have some fun.  This is not their fucking job !!!  @Beketov .  If a simulation league is starting to affect/become your RL.....time to get some help !!!

Edited February 22, 2021 by Eynhallow

[OrbitingDeath 3,198]

Confirming the 68 season , i even made him a Thompson 400 sig to try and lure him in

[KaleebtheMighty 1,509]

I mean it to me is very clear that data was cherry picked to fit an argument. The above information counters that argument in its entirety. So I hope no one is jumping on @Beketov to denounce him and throw his integrity into the trash.

 

Just now, Eynhallow said:

With respect to demanding more out of the volunteers, let's get real.  They are here for the same reasons as we all should be....to have some fun.  This is not their fucking job !!!  @Beketov .  If a simulation league is starting to affect/become your RL.....time to get some help !!!

Exactly what they said. We are all here to just enjoy something together as a community outside of our jobs and daily lives. It should all be in good fun!