Update on SBA Partnership

[Advantage 2,891]

5 hours ago, Molholt said:

Here's the full message:

 

 

---

 

If you'd like further context, there have been a handful of discussions that have happened - I've stayed out of them for the most part and let the BOD handle them, or the people that Beketov has reached out to. With that being said, we've gone in circles for a few months, like Beketov said, and I never saw anything that warranted a serious revisit of our decision. So I decided to save everyone the time. 

 

Let's be honest - there is no partnership here, and there wasn't before. We weren't working together - we were just giving people credit for being on the other site. I championed the partnership to begin with in the hopes of building something bigger than all of our individual leagues, a true community and not just a collection of separate parts. We're focusing on actual partnerships that benefit both sides. 

 

The VHL made a lot of good decisions in the aftermath of the split and I commend them for that. But, Beketov is being a bit disingenuous to say that we didn't come to actually discuss the situation. We were clear about the things we saw as issues and were repeatedly told that identifying them meant we weren't willing to negotiate. Well, that's just not true. We just thought, given the situation, that people shouldn't be going around the VHL's own code of conduct and continuing to make a mockery of the entire situation. 

 

In fact, I sent this message as a direct response to a message we received from Beketov, in which he expressed a similar sentiment. Specifically, he said "I think it might just be time to accept our differences and say we’ll revisit this far down the line but right now it just doesn’t seem likely. I don’t like it but I can’t keep knocking just to have a door slammed in my face and I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume everyone is gonna play nicely when they are constantly told it’s not enough and isn’t going to be." For context: a couple of SBA admins had identified a number of members (including VHL admins) continuing to mock the SBA and our position around the use of slurs as problems we wanted to resolve before resuming any sort of affiliation. As I understand it, Bek asked to be notified of instances when this occurred.

 

SBA admins pointed out these instances and received the above response (original is much longer), which essentially told us that doing what he had asked meant we'd clearly never change our decision (again, not true). Given that this type of "discussion" has been going on for months, I agreed that it wasn't worth either side's time. We felt like the VHL shouldn't have administration publicly shitting on a potential partner, Beketov thought that was unreasonable to ask. That's why we are where we are.

 

I'm not here to admire my handy work @Beketov, just providing some context for those curious. As a member with a HoF player, a spectacular run as GM (a three-peat, the first and only of it's kind) and long-time relationships with a lot of the members here (some of which aren't even in the SBA), my goal was never to sever this relationship for some personal issues. I'd have thought better of those of you who seem to believe that. I've built and ran leagues with @Doomsday and you Bek. I got my start in leagues with @Advantage. I guess your opinion of me is much lower than mine was of you. I'm sorry to hear that. 

I will say, perhaps I'm getting most of my opinions from only one side and am just disappointed we cant work together.

 

You have every right to do what you feel is best though and I'll always respect you as a person even if I don't agree with every decision.

 

And admittedly a lot of my annoyance is I like the SBA but dont want to prioritize it over VHL or do 2 PTs

Edited April 8, 2020 by Advantage

[Devise 4,475]

20 minutes ago, emidas said:

Again, re-iterating we don't want anyone fired, merely the behavior to stop, especially from the top.

 

If what you say is true, and this is all you were looking for our code of conduct changes should of been enough to appease the issues. We took the criticisms of SBA and in general other members very seriously and did a lot of work changing guidelines and standards, particularly on the Discord. Molholt acknowledge as such in his initial post.

 

I don't know why you guys can't just address the point at hand, instead of hiding behind cloak and daggers. You specifically brought up members you had problems with us in private that many are continuing to leave out. You pretend to accuse of transparency issues when in reality your the ones withholding information on the clarity of this issue from the public domain. We have done nothing but try to not only approach you, but convince you that the members in question you had issues with are not to be a problem.

 

What are we met with instead? You then fine lining what determines "shitting on our league", right down to members literally offering fair criticism in your league being taken to us as an example of them not following these undefined guidelines you continue to tell us they are breaking. How, in any good faith are we to expect to appease you? What is it you want then? Is it not enough that we tell you our members have done but nothing but show a sign of good faith towards SBA, or any of our affiliates? We've kept the doors open to affiliation to your members, knowing full well doing so means they are active over there and not here. That doesn't gain us PT users here. Yet it remained open. Even us telling you we've had private conversations (repeatedly I'll add) with some of the members you guys have told us have caused you problems, that hasn't been enough. Yet your never short to dig up any post on our discord searching the terms SBA to find any member in question of again "shitting on your league". Our guidelines are such that we don't need to control our members to the point that they aren't allowed to have their own opinions. Has any of our members harassed or attacked your league recently to the degree that it was evident an affiliate doesn't make sense? 

 

Ultimately what @Advantage echoed in his middle sentence I also echo. I am totally fine if the SBA wants to have a different set of standards and guidelines for it's member. I have always respected that right. This isn't an issue of that. This is bullshit backdoor politics, at the expense of members who simply want to enjoy leagues with their friends and not have to worry about where they are earning. There is nothing that says that the VHL and SBA can't easily coexist peacefully, other than the fact that some of our members opinions here rub you guys the wrong way. Somehow to such a degree that until we either put them in line and I guess in your mind somehow we can "prevent" them from speaking any criticism towards SBA or it's members period. 

 

At the end of the day, we've changed our rules and guidelines, we've told not just members in question but all members not to go starting flames and antagonizing other leagues or their members trying to wave a flag of VHL or making it about an us vs them. All of those things have been changed/stopped to my knowledge. Yet still as we approach in good faith as Bek so clearly lays out in his posts back to you, we feel like we get the door slammed in our face on some sort of moral superiority grounds. 

 

31 minutes ago, emidas said:

I have stayed out of this and most back and forth between leagues to keep a peaceful line open between Bek and myself. But I am really, really, really sick of seeing this get misrepresented and the general member base of the VHL lied to about this. 

 

And I am really sick and tired of you guys using the members in question you have problems with as meat shields to slaughter the reputation of our league. Especially when we've been nothing but cordial to you, your league, and even in a lot of respects it's wishes. You can clearly see the actual frustration coming from Bek in his message, as he continues to try to be reasonable and fight for what should be the easiest of decisions to come to. That is of course, that we have some members here who clearly have beef with some members there. It just so happens that some of the members you guys have issue with here happen to be in prominent positions. That's it. That is all this is and you all god damn well know it. Sorry that we are giving our members the benefit of the doubt to be themselves on other sim leagues. That doesn't or shouldn't compromise an agreement between affiliates. If you have an issue with "X Member here" you should act like a big boy and take up your issue with "X Member here". When in fact your using your issues with those members to punish leagues of people who up until now for a lot of them probably had no idea what any of this even was about. Other than a flame war that happened months ago now. 

 

For the record as well, I've been very much the reasonable type of person in regards to this debate forever now. I've had very good discussions with two members of the BoD over there, or who were at times. A lot of that discussion was before our own guideline changes, I championed trying to update some of our guideline changes here too. Not just on behalf of SBA or it's BoD but because I agreed it was long past time we took a hard look at the conduct we were just freely allowing. But at some point and I couldn't really tell you when, this turned into the SBA telling us our guidelines and standards weren't up to snuff, and that if they weren't we wouldn't be able to affiliate any longer. I get that a few of our prominent members did cause problems in your league, especially during the guideline changing process. I'm sure there is still a lot of personal grudges in there. But to me all that stuff is personal, and the idea that it would be the type of stuff to compromise a pretty tenable sim league relationship is just beyond maddening. It makes absolutely no logical sense to punish the many for the grudge of a few. If you truly believe that because some prominent members happen to have had an outburst or two, or have behavior that bugs you that it speaks to the entire behavior/fitness of our whole league, I don't know what to tell you man. To me that seems like someone dead set on never wanting to have a partnership. 

 

Also, anyone can clear as day see that just because your not remotely saying to fire someone doesn't mean that isn't the implication. Your basically boiling down the VHL's entire reputation to a few members, and then saying that you have an issue with how our reputation affects our fitness as a league in relation to yours. And then having the gall to say "but the issue isn't with those few members, don't think we are telling you to get rid of them or anything." Like, come on. Other than getting rid of those members roles what would we even be able to do to appease you? Assuring you that those members don't represent or speak for the league as a whole, and that we have talked to members about preventing serious tensions in the future is literally all we can do otherwise. 

[TheFlash 317]

At this point, how valuable is a partnership like this to a site such as the VHL? Honest question, just thinking about how we’ve been around for 10-15 years now and have constant growth. Is it from this kind of partnership?

[Molholt 2,185]

@Devise short of responding to your novel, a discussion is happening with the VHL administration - that's really all that can be done at this point. I assume they included the people they wanted in it, and that's why we aren't having this discussion in public. I'm trying to avoid the back and forth nonsense that has led to a lot of the issues to begin with. Otherwise I'd respond more in full. 

[Josh 1,665]

4 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

At this point, how valuable is a partnership like this to a site such as the VHL? Honest question, just thinking about how we’ve been around for 10-15 years now and have constant growth. Is it from this kind of partnership?

 

If it has benefit to any members it has benefit to the league. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Josh

[Banackock 8,044]

5 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

At this point, how valuable is a partnership like this to a site such as the VHL? Honest question, just thinking about how we’ve been around for 10-15 years now and have constant growth. Is it from this kind of partnership?

Affiliations allow members to enjoy all leagues and have perks so that we don’t get burnt out in the process. Members are able to enjoy one, while also being able to join and participate in another. It’s a win/win for everybody and all the communities. It makes a lot of people happy and overall, brings a lot of benefits and positivities to each of the leagues.

 

Such as the amazing one with have with PBE. Amazing league, members and a good time.  

Edited April 8, 2020 by Banackock

[Molholt 2,185]

4 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

At this point, how valuable is a partnership like this to a site such as the VHL? Honest question, just thinking about how we’ve been around for 10-15 years now and have constant growth. Is it from this kind of partnership?

100% honest? In its former state, it's a mild convenience for a small section of the member base. It is certainly not crucial to either side, the way it was. It basically just lets a handful of people claim a PT in another league and for the most part, that option is still there via EFL. A more robust partnership, such as the one the SBA and EFL have, would be more beneficial down the road. 

[frescoelmo 1,276]

 

plz continue

[Devise 4,475]

2 minutes ago, frescoelmo said:

 

plz continue

 

[Doomsday 4,130]

 

@Molholt

[Nykonax 1,564]

yikes molholt "if i sell the league"

[Beketov 9,025]

31 minutes ago, Molholt said:

A more robust partnership, such as the one the SBA and EFL have, would be more beneficial down the road. 

A partnership I would have loved to have, that was always the intention. That’s the future I wanted when I got on board in the first place. Somewhere along the line it fell off the tracks and then things truly started to fall apart and now here we are, in the darkest timeline.

[pennypenny 227]

SBA is a big L anyway, anyone in admin leadership there is big ugly stupid face.

[Aye my name jeff 121]

@Tate

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

5 hours ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

Brave man, hating on Wingate considering what happened with Calgary/Quebec just a few seasons before.

Dude, especially Wingate!

 

[Gustav 6,407]

1 hour ago, Molholt said:

a discussion is happening with the VHL administration

 

Does this mean a discussion is happening right now? I'm just curious about the current state of things--if anything's changed since the initial post, I'd love to hear what can be comfortably released to the public.

 

But now for a friendly neighborhood message to the VHL public:

 

Unless you're a commissioner, an admin, or a member of the BoG, it's probably best if you stay out of the conversation in this thread unless it directly relates to you in particular. I am not in any of these roles so I'll just be following my own advice, sitting back and, unless I am directly spoken to, watching things happen as they happen after I make this post.

 

I've got my own opinions on the matter (and many of you can probably take a good guess at what they are), but I'm well aware that those in charge on either side probably don't care what I've got to say. Consider this the VHL's collective right to remain silent--if indeed a discussion is happening, anyone outside of that discussion should choose to be respectful and represent us well by stepping back and letting those in it talk it out in private.

[STZ 5,359]

15 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

But now for a friendly neighborhood message to the VHL public:

 

Unless you're a commissioner, an admin, or a member of the BoG, it's probably best if you stay out of the conversation in this thread unless it directly relates to you in particular.

To be honest, fuck that. If someone has something to say, say it. If you want to say fuck SBA, say it - no one has the right to tell anyone to stay out of a public discussion. If public opinion isn’t wanted, don’t make a post.

 

I stand with the Admin team, and specifically @Beketov who seems to have drawn the short straw to deal with this drawn out petty shit. 
 

Simply put, if SBA wants to honor an arrangement, cool. If not, cool.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

I don't get it.

 

Yeah, SBA didn't state to fire anyone, sure. BUT, they're saying they don't want to be affiliated with a site that has so and so members at the top.

 

Aside from the rules getting more stricter around the site regarding free speech, what else can be done? In my opinion, you're basically saying remove these people or it's not happening. You didn't say to fire anyone, but it feels somewhat implied.

 

As a side bar, I think a lot of this has to do with the VHL Portal and SBAO having to create their own updating system instead of sharing that? SBAO now lines up with EFLO. SBA wanted everything connected, but considering they created SBAO, I'm assuming that wasn't going to happen with the VHL Portal. The leagues can't truly connect as they've shown with EFLO using the same system. That being said, I do think the VHL Portal is better, with a better layout, but SBAO is always making good moves so I think it will eventually line up with it.

[Beketov 9,025]

2 minutes ago, DollarAndADream said:

SBA wanted everything connected, but considering they created SBAO, I'm assuming that wasn't going to happen with the VHL Portal.

FWIW if they ever wanted this they never came to me about it. There was a time when we surely would have been more than willing to help out and create a unified system. There are things I like about there’s (god I want clippy) and I’m sure there are things they’d want from ours. The frickin was aside from all this politics is the coding languages (as my basic brain understands it) are completely incompatible so one or the other would need to be re-written no matter what.

[Gustav 6,407]

2 minutes ago, STZ said:

To be honest, fuck that. If someone has something to say, say it. If you want to say fuck SBA, say it - no one has the right to tell anyone to stay out of a public discussion. If public opinion isn’t wanted, don’t make a post.

 

I stand with the Admin team, and specifically @Beketov who seems to have drawn the short straw to deal with this drawn out petty shit. 
 

Simply put, if SBA wants to honor an arrangement, cool. If not, cool.

 

I get this perspective too. If people are going to come in and say whatever they want, that's beyond my control and I'm not going to get mad at anyone for "not listening to me" or whatever--I'm just a GM who has nothing to do with the situation. Just pointing out that if this thread escalates any farther, "anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law," and that type of thing.

[Domkey 11]

wow I am very new here and all i can say is 

 

 

 

 

 

IS IT EVER THAT DEEP

 

I have been in the SBA for about a year and remember when all of this stuff was happening. TBH i didn't really see it as a big deal and forgot about but now seeing this is it really that deep

[Higgins 3,618]

“Unless I sell the SBA”

 

Thanks for the laugh, I needed it

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

7 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

 

I get this perspective too. If people are going to come in and say whatever they want, that's beyond my control and I'm not going to get mad at anyone for "not listening to me" or whatever--I'm just a GM who has nothing to do with the situation. Just pointing out that if this thread escalates any farther, "anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law," and that type of thing.

Kind of gave me a laugh because right after your post, I made a post about my opinions.

[Gustav 6,407]

Just now, DollarAndADream said:

Kind of gave me a laugh because right after your post, I made a post about my opinions.

[Banackock 8,044]

23 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

 

I get this perspective too. If people are going to come in and say whatever they want, that's beyond my control and I'm not going to get mad at anyone for "not listening to me" or whatever--I'm just a GM who has nothing to do with the situation. Just pointing out that if this thread escalates any farther, "anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law," and that type of thing.

He had sexual relations with that woman.